oldiesman

Coolwaters, had the child been beaten by the mother, chances are he wouldn't have stolen further, and wouldn't have subsequently bitten off her ear. Aesop was a child abuser too, eh?

"The Thief And His Mother" The Thief and His Mother A BOY stole a lesson-book from one of his schoolfellows and took it home to his Mother. She not only abstained from beating him, but encouraged him. He next time stole a cloak and brought it to her, and she again commended him. The Youth, advanced to adulthood, proceeded to steal things of still greater value. At last he was caught in the very act, and having his hands bound behind him, was led away to the place of public execution. His Mother followed in the crowd and violently beat her breast in sorrow, whereupon the young man said, "I wish to say something to my Mother in her ear." She came close to him, and he quickly seized her ear with his teeth and bit it off. The Mother upbraided him as an unnatural child, whereon he replied, "Ah! if you had beaten me when I first stole and brought to you that lesson-book, I should not have come to this, nor have been thus led to a disgraceful death." - an Aesop's Fable translated by George Fyler Townsend

Tom, I think I know what you mean ... even back in the 1970's it was thought that if you left the ministry, you were "tripped out" and stuff. However, I don't think that rose anywhere near to the level of being "snuffed out" like Craig and Donna suggested. There were a few times in my TWI years that I was tripped out... In fact the very first time I took the Advanced Class back in 1978, immediately prior to that I wasn't attending twig for 6 months. It really was no big deal.

Tom, I think TWI-2 started around 1986 with the POP paper. I think the "earliest" it could have been is 1982 with Craig becoming President.

That's part of what is commonly known as TWI-2, which is another reason why it was different than TWI-1.

IMF777, I never prayed for evil to be directed at anyone. However, there have been times in my life, in TWI, that when evil was done to me, evil was somehow returned to the evildoer.

I don't think you're a bad person at all! On the contrary, I think you're a good person who thinks continual evil about certain particular people and groups. You're a witch, aren't you?

Coolwaters are you a witch ?

I think you folks just don't believe Proverbs. Period. I believe those words are just as much revelation as anyplace else in the bible. more on the rod

Yeah the Trustees should be blamed because they forced people to wait for Session 12 before they allowed people to speak in tongues.

This is true... Years ago, I was talking with a friend at work who's daughter heard that in TWI, you must speak in tongues to be saved. I asked my friend to please correct her daughter and tell her to do better research about TWI because they never taught that SIT was a requirement to be saved. Thanks Raf.

Dr. Wierwille was completely faithful in teaching the biblical truths on how folks are reconciled to God. Thank goodness we weren't a group something like the moonies, who taught that Sun Young Moon was the Second Coming...

Coolwaters, I gave my two cents previously on that. I don't think the Wierwille's (either VPW or DEW) would have ever condoned it. I think one of the differences between you and me is you look on those guys and see monsters; I look and see people.

You're talking about the Corps, correct? Yeah well that was part of the program. You had times when children weren't under their parents supervision, and the training method was with "the rod". The theory was (and I'm winging it a little here) is that other parents are your brothers and sisters in Christ, that being the case you trust one another to do the right thing. I remember one time as a little kid, I was in Roman Catholic "release time" Wednesday afternoon. We were standing in line at the church, and I said something, I forget what, and the nun hauled off and smacked me right in the face. I don't remember whether it was something I said out of line, or what, but I sure remembered it. Knowing the way I was, it was probably something I said out of line. My parents trusted that the nun did the right thing. It didn't hurt me. What hurt me more was the fact they didn't teach the Word much...I had to get involved with TWI to finally learn some things that made some sense.

You just won't understand that physical punishment could be a good thing if one learns something from it. I'd much rather suffer physical pain and teach me a valuable lesson than make a really REALLY big mistake later.

Coolwaters, thanks for admitting that. This has everything to do with it, and your ideas about TWI. Naturally, if you believe hitting is child abuse, you'll believe TWI was promoting child abuse. You're not alone...I've spoken to folks outside TWI that also believe hitting is child abuse. I think your belief may also be a sign of the times we are in. We're losing old, established concepts that were considered valid for thousands of years (another example: marriage used to be between male and female).

I have no idea. I think TWI should put each segment on the internet so folks could view it, for free. It would be a great public service.

George, I agree with you, some of PFAL is B.S. But that's not what you first said, you said "bible b.s."... But I'm glad you still believe the bible...maybe?...

Abigail and Vickles, I will answer your questions in this manner: Do I think TWI promoted child abuse: NO Do I think the Trustees are responsible for cases of spankings and beatings: NO Do I think use of the spoon is child abuse: NO Do I think spanking is child abuse: NO Do I have children: NO Do I think the bible justifies spanking and beatings: YES Is it possible to go overboard and spank and beat too hard: YES Did TWI have people involved in it that went overboard and spanked and beat too hard: YES Is 2 years old too young to spank: ? have no idea, I think it's parents discretion. I wouldn't. When my father beat me I learned a lesson. Was it child abuse? I don't think so, especially since I know he loved me and wanted the best for me. I would say generally, that if you think beatings are wrong then you have a problem with Proverbs, which is pretty clear on this topic. I can say this, I've committed some wrongs in my life that I'm so ashamed of that I wish now, someone was around to haul off and give me some pain... I would have learned a lesson sooner before damage was done.

If folks thought that the bible was B.S. (or even TWI, for that matter), they wouldn't have hung around for so long -- 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years, for example. That's sure a lot of time to decide what's b.s. and what's not, wouldn't you say?

Tom, What's your take on use of the spoon? Is it child abuse?

I don't know about anyone else, but when I go to the supermarket I almost always see people begging for money of some sort. You see poor little children being prodded by their overweight parents looking on. They put these little kids on the spot, begging for money. Its nauseating. Please go get a job and stop bothering me.

PFAL helped thousands of folks including myself. I'm thankful VP taught it; it met lots of needs. Those are the facts, as much as some like to trash it now.

Vicks, if TWI was so terrible, why did folks hang around for 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years, especially since it was supposed to have encouraged child abuse? I'm not with them because TWI-2 has been considered by many to be exceedingly legalistic, among some other doctrinal issues I now disagree with. However, if there were a fellowship nearby me, I wouldn't have a problem going to check it out. But it'd be a cold day in hell before I gave them money. What's your take on the spoon? Is it child abuse?

That is the question I'm asking you. You don't believe there is a right way to do that? All those years in twi and you can't come up with the right way to do that? You were there all those years and the thought about doing that the right way never crossed you mind? What do you believe today? Is spanking child abuse? use of the spoon?