oldiesman

I can't wait to see this. Evan, Does it have any common themes to the other film "Martin Luther" in b/w we saw some years ago? Martin Luther

Rafael, Come on, I didn't think I was namecalling but merely describing what I believe to be a devilish theory. For the record, I think Ex10 who is my sister in Christ is a fine human being, exceptionally bright and of the highest moral standards. You too.

Thomas Heller said: I wholeheartedly agree.

Your accusations do make me cringe. My Spiritual Halitosis counter is jumping off the scale.

P.S. We were taught in TWI about remission and forgiveness of sins. Remission is for the unsaved sinner, forgiveness is for the saved sinner.: I John 1:9 WE WERE NOT TAUGHT "its ok for me to continue in sin and get away with it." That's your morbid, devilishly accusative theory that is arrogantly judgmental and overly condescending.

Rafael and Ex10, The answers to your questions are obvious. Do you care to answer mine:

To Rafael and Ex10, My comments above were directed at what I perceived to be a false accusation, or conclusion, from the above comment, among others. The message of the cross, in TWI, became the reason why we could sin and get away with it? I see that statement as morbid. How can you accuse your brothers and sisters in Christ of being that shallow? I cannot.

P.S. Have you looked at John 10:10 lately? How about Romans 8: 30-37 (KJV):

I think the arrogant position here is the one that automatically assumes that if one believes "because Christ suffered for us, I don't have to", that that means that person says to themselves "its ok for me to continue in sin and get away with it." Where did you get that one from? Who taught that? And why is there so much disdain, disrespect and disparagement for your brothers and sisters in Christ who think that its ok to be identified with the risen Christ and not wanting to tolerate suffering? If E.W. Kenyon is wrong then I'd like to see a better solution than the "sorry you must suffer" mantra of the RC church. "Well, it's just God's will", etc. etc...

Personally I wouldn't call it a shortcut but rather, focusing more on identification with the risen, living Christ: The Wonderful Name of Jesus E.W. Kenyon pp. 62-63

Rafael, It looks like we're still not quite on the same page. The cross symbol and the cross of Christ were two separate things in TWI. There was a complete disconnect. We all know that TWI's position on the wooden/silver/gold cross symbol was one of disdain. We were even taught it wasn't a Christian symbol, from Babylon Mystery Religion. We believed that. Later on in his second book, Woodrow wrote that the cross symbol was godly: The Babylon Connection? Ralph Woodrow page 59. Where I disagree with some posters is the reference that twi's position was one of disrespect and ridicule for the cross of Christ simply because we viewed the cross symbol with disdain. The cross of Christ, in TWI, was separate and distinct from the wooden/silver/gold cross in everyone's mind. The cross symbol was an unchristian pagan symbol not connected with the true meaning of Christ's sacrifice. Do you really think that if the cross symbol, in TWI, meant or equalled or fully symbolized Christ's sacrifice, that we would have looked upon it with disdain and disrespect? No way. Looking back, I agree we shouldn't have made that distinction. But you seem to be saying there is no distinction between the two and in the average Christian's mind, you're right. But you know that we were different and viewed things differently, much like the Jehovah's Witnesses do on certain things.

The cross symbol is not necessarily a godly symbol to everyone, especially us in TWI who were taught its origins. But even so, the idea that TWI should have had respect for and not ridicule the cross symbol is a good debatable point seeing as many Christians respect it and on that point alone I would tend to agree. One must remember when we in TWI saw the wooden/silver/gold cross, no question it was a negative symbol because of what we were taught and believed from Babylon Mystery Religion. The evil history of the Roman Catholic Church also didn't help us view the cross symbol as a godly one. With that said, it doesn't mean the twi position was disrespect for, ridicule for, or ignorance of the cross of Christ, the cross Christ bore, as I've noted from VPW's writings; what it meant was we chose to distinguish the two, something like the Jehovahs Witnesses having disdain for the Christmas holiday yet at the same time believing in the birth of Christ.

Simon of Cyrene and The Cross Christ Bore Another Study in Abundant Living by Victor Paul Wierwille Page 8

I can't wait to see the upcoming Mel Gibson movie "The Passion of Christ".

Hi Danny, Happy Thanksgiving to you and hope you and family are ok. Love, oldies P.S. Happy Thanksgiving to all! Food for Thought: if you don't have a Turkey, it doesn't mean you don't respect Thanksgiving...

Danny, if what you say here is true about organizational structure, then by comparison the Roman Catholic Church, with its divided and subdivided various leadership/overlord/school categories of overlords, are far from exhibiting or reflecting an especial meaning and deep understanding of the cross of Christ. Does institutional Mary Worship enhance the meaning of the cross of Christ? And since they use the wooden/silver cross specifically as a supposed symbol of their faith around their necks, do THEY respect the true cross of Christ by their organizational structure with numerous overlords? If the wooden/silver cross is really symbolic of the true meaning of the cross Christ bore, then they've denigraded it over the centuries by their rotten fruit, and shame on them for wearing that symbol. [This message was edited by oldiesman on November 27, 2003 at 5:52.]

P.S. The Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Christmas. Does that mean they automatically are disrespecting, ridiculing and ignoring the birth of Christ?

Rafael, Let me try to put it another way. Since some folks are concluding that the TWI position was to disrespect, ridicule and ignore the cross of Christ, can you show me in any of TWI's writings, anywhere it was taught we as Christians are to ignore, ridicule and disrespect the cross of Christ? Why does ridicule of the wooden/silver/gold cross automatically mean disrespect for the cross Christ bore? That's your surmising, not necessarily the truth. One other point: does the wearing of the cross on one's neck automatically mean that the wearer has respect for the cross Christ bore? If that's true then evil people can't or don't wear crosses...

Yes I remember that and also the one "if Jesus was killed with a machine gun, would you wear a machine gun around your neck?" There's a real debatable question whether TWI should or shouldn't have condemned silver/gold/wooden crosses... But to make the giant leap from that and say the TWI position was to ridicule, ignore the meaning of, and disrespect the cross of Christ, is pure folly. I think its more than that actually, I think these fanciful conclusions are in the category of evil surmisings. Let's just ignore what VP wrote and think the worst.

Yes, TWI ridiculed and disrespected the wooden/silver cross. But that's not what was said from the get go... TWI never ignored or ridiculed or rejected the cross of Christ. Perhaps I am missing something. Are you saying that the original meaning of Kit Sober's words "the cross of Christ" meant she was talking about the wooden/silver cross? If that's true, then one may also believe that a person cannot respect or admire the cross Christ bore without having a symbol around one's neck to prove it...

Rafael, Thanks for acknowledging that VP didn't intend to reject the message of the cross. Not only didn't he reject it, but he spoke of its true meaning over and over again. One may accuse TWI of a lot of things, but saying TWI didn't respect, and ignored, and ridiculed the cross of Christ is just pure nonsense. It's a phony claim. And more so because the accusation came from someone who's been around for years and years. The true message of the cross of Christ was told over and over again in TWI so anyone who's been around for any length of time couldn't miss it. If one wants to say that TWI should have been more tolerant of folks who wear crosses, or shouldn't have taught what Ralph Woodrow taught in "Babylon Mystery Religion", that the cross was really a pagan symbol, that's another matter entirely. I agree on that point. But rejecting the wooden/silver cross doesn't mean rejection of the cross Christ bore. I think that's fairly obvious.

Ex10, Here's my point: Simon of Cyrene and the Cross Christ Bore The Word's Way Victor Paul Wierwille pp. 224-227 Does the above quote sound like the twi position was to ignore, ridicule and reject respect for the cross of Christ?

The following describes the twi position on the cross of Christ: Simon of Cyrene and the Cross

Garth said: Garth, I disagree with you on this point. If a person wants to forgive Dr. VP of his sins, how do you know that it's only because they want "their idol to be free from being held accountable.."? You just finished saying that if you want to forgive, it is ONLY up to you and God. So if a person forgives someone, does it have to be idol worship as the motive? I would make the general observation that I hope you agree with, that folks shouldn't be thought of as "wrong" if they fail to forgive, and similarly, folks shouldn't be thought of as "wrong" if they do decide to forgive. That seems fair...

Happy Birthday Valerie, remembering you from our wow year in Amarillo... You're not really 52 are you? Gee time flies. Love, Oldies