oldiesman

Why is it so important for some folks to make comparisons like this? VPW wasn't a murder or a cannibal but let's just think the worst. Like I said, it doesn't matter what good he did, he was a monster to some folks.

If all someone thinks about, cares to listen to, and unrelentingly talks about is the harm VP did, then they are being blinded by hate. I wouldn't call that behavior a bastion of objectivity, would you?

P.S. To prove this point, why is it that when someone says they received some godliness at the hands of VPW and TWI, it just simply doesn't matter to some folks. That's a fact. Who cares what good was done? People got hurt. The hurt is more important. The evil is all that matters. You don't deny some folks have advanced that viewpoint, do you?

I agree wholeheartedly. I think What the Hay and I are talking about those folks who don't care what good VPW did, he was EVIL. Period. After all, Adolph Hitler did some good things too, right? You certainly aren't denying there are folks here who think that way, are you?

What the Hay, I'm with you on this point. It just doesn't matter to some folks anything good VPW did, it just doesn't matter, because he was nothing more than an evil monster to some. No matter who he helped along the way. His good works don't matter to some because they are quite blinded by hate of the man. There is simply no objectivity left.

I still strongly believe this and nothing anyone's done has changed my mind. God's gifts to mankind are without repentance and in TWI-world this was thought of as the greatest form of service. This was the hand of God's blessing on TWI despite the evil skeletons in the closet.

Coolwaters, you didn't mention anything about restructuring before; no I don't think that would have been bad. BTW, I think not having the Way Corps would have been just fine. If that's part of the restructuring, I'd agree. I think the Way Corps did more harm than good. Other viewpoints may vary.

Coolwaters, you're comparing one person who went bad, to TWI that was still doing godly things despite the evil works (with most of it very secretive)and reaching folks with the Word who needed and appreciated it. As Zixar pointed out, TWI was comprised of lots of folks who stood faithful and made a difference, despite VPW. I wouldn't have canned the whole thing because VPW took liberties he shouldn't have. I think that's the dead wrong way to look at it.

Zix, I happen to disagree with you here but don't have a problem with what you've said either. But at any rate, folks don't see this EVEN IF it was ONLY God responsible for the godly things going on. It appears that no matter what, some folks will always think (or consistently proclaim) it was all just a phony charade.

Ok no problem. TWI should never have existed because of the evil acts, is that what you really believe?

Coolwaters, As usual, you're looking at only one side of the coin. Lots and lots of folks got blessed in TWI-1. Why should it have been stopped when so many folks benefitted? Even some who now faithfully trash TWI have said they've gleaned godly things from it. It wasn't all a charade.

Goey, You and Oakspear have taken issue with my statement of using the word "most" instead of "much" as characterizing your statement. Ok, no problem. So then are you saying that I was wrong that you believe "most" of what VP taught was erroneous and self-serving? Am I wrong? Are you saying that most of it was godly? The impression I've gotten from you over the years is that you have nothing much good to say about VPW, TWI and PFAL. If you've said some things, I've certainly missed them. Am I wrong? Then when I point out your feelings, and excuse me, mistakenly use a different word you used, you accuse me of twisting the meaning. Come off of it will you please? You've had virtually nothing good to say about PFAL and TWI and VPW since you been here. If I'm wrong, please give me the courtesy of correcting my error and tell me what godly things came from PFAL and TWI. Otherwise, please stop accusing me of twisting your words and meanings.

What The Hay Said: What The Hay, no need to mince words here, I believe (and maybe you as well) that VP made a positive difference in all of our lives, in varying degrees, especially those of us who hung around TWI 10, 15, 20, 25, even almost 30 years, whether folks will admit to it or not. That's why we hung around TWI for so long...the ultimate compliment for TWI was that we folks hung around that long.

Ex10, you didn't miss it, in fact you were there to witness it. He led (or was a major part of a movement that led) thousands of folks to a more accurate knowledge of the bible, folks who might not have been reached otherwise. No question in my mind that's a huge accomplishment.

P.S. VPW got all or most of his stuff from men of God scattered across the continent. So then if most of what he taught was erroneous and self-serving, would it be fair to say these men whom he got these biblical truths from were erroneous and self-serving as well?

Goey, I don't mind changing my thinking on things if what I am believing is error. In fact, I welcome it. However, I want to be very sure that I don't change my thinking and throw out biblical truths, simply because of Wierwille's walk (or lack of walking) in these truths in Christ. Truth should stand by itself, whether or not VPW lived up to it. Just an observation on my part: it's too bad some folks now disbelieve almost everything we learned in TWI because of disenchantment and disappointment with men's walks.

I think this logic makes some sense. Saul was a murderer. Can you imagine if there were a Greasespot Cafe of the First Century? Folks would be posting on it how much of a creep Saul was for murdering beloved family members. Now there are those who would point out all the good Saul (also called Paul) has done....but like the sins of Wierwille it brings little solace to those who have been affected by the evil. In that sense, who cares whether he's repented or not, the damage is done, the dirty deeds are a historical fact. So I think you can believe God's Word, even though it may have come from, or was expounded by, sinners and malefactors.

Actually, the thought of paying the tithe to insure protection from God came first from Dr. Wierwille, in Christians Should Be Prosperous. Here are some notable quotes: As long as the people tithed, they prospered in everything. When they withheld their tithe or tried to substitute second-rate offerings, when they became stingy with God and refused their rightful offerings to Him, they became afflicted, oppressed, diseased and defeated. Whatever our life's calling may be, we can prosper only as we return to God at least a tithe of all our increase. Then we have His divine protection as well as His manifold blessings. Tithing is our minimum financial insurance, health and accident insurance. Malachi 3:11 is not only for the farmer. The devourer for your sake will be rebuked too; he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground, nor will he destroy anything else if you will stand on God's promise and claim it by saying, "In the name of Jesus Christ I claim these blessings, I claim this prosperity, I claim this goodness." You claim it with your mouth by believing it in your heart. Don't pray for prosperity if you don't tithe.Concerning the last quote, I believe everything works that VP said except the last sentence.

Have a nice weekend, everyone.

Yes, you're taking this too far... Do you have a Type A personality? Relax...

Why must it be run by TWI, why not run by the Wierwille's themselves? I would contribute to that, sure.

Rascal, you have a way about your writing that is very accusatory. As you may recall, I was commenting on Ginger's post about victim mentality and I conferred with her that it existed, then quoted something from Naomi Judd. You're taking this way too far. I'm just expressing an opinion. If there is such a thing as victim mentality and being a wound addict, and it doesn't apply to you, FANTASTIC! I'm very glad.

Oaks, had the statement been "I complied through fear", it would have been saying that that person, speaking for herself, complied through fear. By saying "we", it infers that all of us, every one of us, not just that person, complied through fear. That statement does not apply to me, at least not to any great extent, which was why I spoke up. Perhaps if folks would just relay their own experiences and not speak for others, we'd all understand each other better? I don't need folks to try to psycho-analyze what I experienced...I know myself what I experienced.

On second thought Tom, please keep quiet, ok? Perhaps you should take a break from Greasespot?...I will feel a whole lot better if you do. lol...

Tom, so then I should just be quiet when somebody says "we complied through fear ... " etc.? It's not a true statement from my viewpoint and doesn't apply to me, so should I just be quiet? That's what you're asking me to do. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but again state my viewpoint that I think the open exchange of ideas is best for everyone. What happens if, when somebody says something I don't like, I ask them to be quiet? lol...