oldiesman

If folks thought that the bible was B.S. (or even TWI, for that matter), they wouldn't have hung around for so long -- 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years, for example. That's sure a lot of time to decide what's b.s. and what's not, wouldn't you say?

Tom, What's your take on use of the spoon? Is it child abuse?

I don't know about anyone else, but when I go to the supermarket I almost always see people begging for money of some sort. You see poor little children being prodded by their overweight parents looking on. They put these little kids on the spot, begging for money. Its nauseating. Please go get a job and stop bothering me.

PFAL helped thousands of folks including myself. I'm thankful VP taught it; it met lots of needs. Those are the facts, as much as some like to trash it now.

Vicks, if TWI was so terrible, why did folks hang around for 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years, especially since it was supposed to have encouraged child abuse? I'm not with them because TWI-2 has been considered by many to be exceedingly legalistic, among some other doctrinal issues I now disagree with. However, if there were a fellowship nearby me, I wouldn't have a problem going to check it out. But it'd be a cold day in hell before I gave them money. What's your take on the spoon? Is it child abuse?

That is the question I'm asking you. You don't believe there is a right way to do that? All those years in twi and you can't come up with the right way to do that? You were there all those years and the thought about doing that the right way never crossed you mind? What do you believe today? Is spanking child abuse? use of the spoon?

So then use of the wooden spoon constitutes child abuse? CW, do you believe that spanking a child constitutes child abuse?

The coordinator wanted silence at his meeting. I don't see how he condoned child abuse. is that what you're suggesting? JT, We've all seen and been a part of this happening. A young child is screaming during twig. What do you do? The twig coordinator says "why not beat the crap out of him"? Is that what you're suggesting was the norm? What I think was the norm was the parent leaving the room with the screaming child, as you did. I've seen that happen many times. So where was TWI promoting child abuse?

Nonsense. We were taught the right way to apply those verses. You're saying we weren't. You're rewriting history.

Coolwaters, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Are you saying that those verses in Proverbs promote child abuse?

Of course TWI-1 was acceptable...are you kidding? Since I was involved for 17 years in a system that supposedly promoted child abuse, I would have picked up on it long before now. Wouldn't you have? By the way, we were taught in TWI that "the rod of correction" was to be used with love, to help the child, not used to beat the crap out of the child out of anger or malice. You know that as well as I so please stop trying to re-write history. But I know there are folks who think if one even raises a finger to a child, it's child abuse. If those are your beliefs, you should have left TWI the moment you learned about those biblical passages about the rod. 20-30 years later and it qualifies for child abuse? I know you're trying very hard to put TWI in its most miserable light possible, it just doesn't work when you rewrite history. I am not denying the legitimate cases of child abuse, I've even seen it happen myself. But it's how you're framing the argument what I object to. Everything is TWI's fault, all the time. Period. There's not even a hint of objectivity.

Was there ever anything we were taught in TWI that actually encouraged and promoted child abuse? Chapter and verse please. It seems funny how lots of folks hung around for so long, 20-30 years even, in that system that supposedly encouraged and promoted child abuse. One might have thought they would have walked away long, long ago under those conditions.

I think this is the best advice. However, if it really bothers you, you could write a letter to your mother, tactfully expressing your anger and dismay at her actions. It may not do any good but at least you've communicated your feelings. If you're still intent on suing somebody, consult with a lawyer but I doubt you can get anything after all this time.

My response was in the context of someone possibly accusing Don Wierwille of knowing about child abuse happening and doing nothing about it. I think my statement still holds true...things happen that the BOT knew nothing about. Regarding VPW's so-called responses...would it surprise you to learn that his mail was screened and its quite possible that he never saw what Coolwaters wrote? I know this firsthand, because I wrote him myself and got back responses signed by his screeners, but signed "Victor Paul Wierwille". I examined and investigated and found out that one of my letters was screened, and VPW never saw it. So yes, its possible that VPW didn't know about it and she got responses from letter screeners. Don Wierwille also could have been uninformed...

Here's my opinion on this sad topic: there's no question that child abuse happened, but before I accuse someone of facilitating a crime, I'd want to get proof that they (by they, are we talking about the BOT?) knew what was happening and facilitated it. You can't blame the BOT for everything evil that went on. Some folks would like to. But I just remember what type of a man Don Wierwille was and can't believe he would have tolerated any instances of child abuse. "Prove all things"...

One other comment about Fred Price...I was watching his program a few months ago and I couldn't believe something he taught...something in the bible that suggested to the effect that one can "lose their salvation if they don't curtail their sinful habit patterns." I don't know whether he took PFAL or not, but Price's teaching that day certainly was evidence to me that he was far far from the PFAL teaching on salvation, which perhaps was one of the most important and meaningful in PFAL.

I agree with Goey but don't with Golfie.

Raf, the times at GS I've come to the defense of VPW are so miniscule compared to the volume of negativity propounded. You don't mind hearing about all the junk but balk when someone has something nice to say about him? That's not fair. But at any rate, if your tired of hearing me speak about him, I will commit to being silent till the end of the month. How's that?

I thought you meant let's stop talking about him altogether. I'm game for that. Let's all do it, all of us, not just you and me. That's what I was game for...

Raf, you're wrong, and misjudging me. Ok then, might I suggest we talk about God's Word and stop talking about VPW. I'm game.

Ex10, I think TWI's teaching (which of course is in large part J.E. Stiles and B.G. Leonard) of what the Holy Spirit is and means to folks is the best and most useful I've heard. I still speak in tongues after all these years. That's an extreme comfort to me. It's really had an impact on my life.

Raf, What the Hay and I are not dismissing the evil and I think you know that. What we are saying is that we are not dismissing the good, BECAUSE OF the evil. Rascal and others would like us to, no doubt. Are you suggesting we are dismissing the evil because we also note and give meaning and credence to the godly experiences? Also I find it disturbing you would be on the side of someone who proclaims our blessings in TWI were paid for by the misfortune of others. If that's not extremely one-sided I don't know what is. Surely you don't believe that nonsense do you?

Colleen, I mentioned the Hitler comparison because it has been used before, here and on Waydale. But some folks do actually think the worst about VPW at all times, every day of the week; and compare him to Hitler and Dahmer. He's the worst of the worst, always will be, to them.

This is the exact reason why you are blinded by hatred and can't reason much of anything else. It doesn't matter what godliness he did, because even the good has an evil connotation. IT WAS evil in your eyes.

The price of my blessing was paid by Jesus Christ at the cross... at one time communicated to me aptly by VPW and others. You choose to unrelentingly focus on your hurt and disgust of VP. You don't care about anything else.