oldiesman

Shazdancer, I think they did stop it at one point. Lindyhopper said that during one rock, they corrected everyone because it was seen that folks got overboard with it. But, as evidenced on this thread, there are some folks who believe even the "right way" is still child abuse. Some folks now believe hitting is never justified, at all. Let's be clear on that.

Shazdancer, A fable is just that, a story that is thought provoking. But thanks for sharing what you were taught in TWI...it doesn't sound like child abuse to me...despite what some believe. One thing is certain and I'm sure of...there are some folks who DEFINITELY believe the bible teaches/encourages child abuse. If not, they would have believed what you're saying/sharing about what TWI taught. Thanks.

Coolwaters, once again, you're labelling all of TWI from your morbid, accusative, half-truth reality. You may accuse me of looking at only the positive side, and the positives of people; perhaps a fair conclusion. But you DEFINITELY look, focus and continue to promote only the trash. I think what I said before was correct...you think continuous evil of certain people and groups. Please don't deny it.

Taking the worst of beatings, crimes, rapes, etc. and using examples like that and trying to compare that to parents biblically correcting their children with the rod, just doesn't wash. It doesn't apply, we're talking apples and oranges. Nice try though.

Beating a child to correct them has nothing to do with the parents temper...we learned that in TWI. This issue has everything to do with the thread and is not a derailment. TWI is accused of fostering child abuse, partly because it espoused use of the rod. You said it yourself, and some of you believe use of the rod is child abuse. In fact, use of the rod is biblical. The fact that you won't or can't accept it now (after years and years of accepting it in TWI without question) doesn't change facts and truth.

LMAO

Coolwaters, had the child been beaten by the mother, chances are he wouldn't have stolen further, and wouldn't have subsequently bitten off her ear. Aesop was a child abuser too, eh?

"The Thief And His Mother" The Thief and His Mother A BOY stole a lesson-book from one of his schoolfellows and took it home to his Mother. She not only abstained from beating him, but encouraged him. He next time stole a cloak and brought it to her, and she again commended him. The Youth, advanced to adulthood, proceeded to steal things of still greater value. At last he was caught in the very act, and having his hands bound behind him, was led away to the place of public execution. His Mother followed in the crowd and violently beat her breast in sorrow, whereupon the young man said, "I wish to say something to my Mother in her ear." She came close to him, and he quickly seized her ear with his teeth and bit it off. The Mother upbraided him as an unnatural child, whereon he replied, "Ah! if you had beaten me when I first stole and brought to you that lesson-book, I should not have come to this, nor have been thus led to a disgraceful death." - an Aesop's Fable translated by George Fyler Townsend

Tom, I think I know what you mean ... even back in the 1970's it was thought that if you left the ministry, you were "tripped out" and stuff. However, I don't think that rose anywhere near to the level of being "snuffed out" like Craig and Donna suggested. There were a few times in my TWI years that I was tripped out... In fact the very first time I took the Advanced Class back in 1978, immediately prior to that I wasn't attending twig for 6 months. It really was no big deal.

Tom, I think TWI-2 started around 1986 with the POP paper. I think the "earliest" it could have been is 1982 with Craig becoming President.

That's part of what is commonly known as TWI-2, which is another reason why it was different than TWI-1.

IMF777, I never prayed for evil to be directed at anyone. However, there have been times in my life, in TWI, that when evil was done to me, evil was somehow returned to the evildoer.

I don't think you're a bad person at all! On the contrary, I think you're a good person who thinks continual evil about certain particular people and groups. You're a witch, aren't you?

Coolwaters are you a witch ?

I think you folks just don't believe Proverbs. Period. I believe those words are just as much revelation as anyplace else in the bible. more on the rod

Yeah the Trustees should be blamed because they forced people to wait for Session 12 before they allowed people to speak in tongues.

This is true... Years ago, I was talking with a friend at work who's daughter heard that in TWI, you must speak in tongues to be saved. I asked my friend to please correct her daughter and tell her to do better research about TWI because they never taught that SIT was a requirement to be saved. Thanks Raf.

Dr. Wierwille was completely faithful in teaching the biblical truths on how folks are reconciled to God. Thank goodness we weren't a group something like the moonies, who taught that Sun Young Moon was the Second Coming...

Coolwaters, I gave my two cents previously on that. I don't think the Wierwille's (either VPW or DEW) would have ever condoned it. I think one of the differences between you and me is you look on those guys and see monsters; I look and see people.

You're talking about the Corps, correct? Yeah well that was part of the program. You had times when children weren't under their parents supervision, and the training method was with "the rod". The theory was (and I'm winging it a little here) is that other parents are your brothers and sisters in Christ, that being the case you trust one another to do the right thing. I remember one time as a little kid, I was in Roman Catholic "release time" Wednesday afternoon. We were standing in line at the church, and I said something, I forget what, and the nun hauled off and smacked me right in the face. I don't remember whether it was something I said out of line, or what, but I sure remembered it. Knowing the way I was, it was probably something I said out of line. My parents trusted that the nun did the right thing. It didn't hurt me. What hurt me more was the fact they didn't teach the Word much...I had to get involved with TWI to finally learn some things that made some sense.

You just won't understand that physical punishment could be a good thing if one learns something from it. I'd much rather suffer physical pain and teach me a valuable lesson than make a really REALLY big mistake later.

Coolwaters, thanks for admitting that. This has everything to do with it, and your ideas about TWI. Naturally, if you believe hitting is child abuse, you'll believe TWI was promoting child abuse. You're not alone...I've spoken to folks outside TWI that also believe hitting is child abuse. I think your belief may also be a sign of the times we are in. We're losing old, established concepts that were considered valid for thousands of years (another example: marriage used to be between male and female).

I have no idea. I think TWI should put each segment on the internet so folks could view it, for free. It would be a great public service.

George, I agree with you, some of PFAL is B.S. But that's not what you first said, you said "bible b.s."... But I'm glad you still believe the bible...maybe?...

Abigail and Vickles, I will answer your questions in this manner: Do I think TWI promoted child abuse: NO Do I think the Trustees are responsible for cases of spankings and beatings: NO Do I think use of the spoon is child abuse: NO Do I think spanking is child abuse: NO Do I have children: NO Do I think the bible justifies spanking and beatings: YES Is it possible to go overboard and spank and beat too hard: YES Did TWI have people involved in it that went overboard and spanked and beat too hard: YES Is 2 years old too young to spank: ? have no idea, I think it's parents discretion. I wouldn't. When my father beat me I learned a lesson. Was it child abuse? I don't think so, especially since I know he loved me and wanted the best for me. I would say generally, that if you think beatings are wrong then you have a problem with Proverbs, which is pretty clear on this topic. I can say this, I've committed some wrongs in my life that I'm so ashamed of that I wish now, someone was around to haul off and give me some pain... I would have learned a lesson sooner before damage was done.