oldiesman

Raf, that wasn't ALL I said, but thanks to your nagging, I do admit it was condescending of me to say it, and / or say it the way I did. It didn't have to be said. Thanks for pointing that out. Iron sharpeneth iron.

Goey, when did I say that TWI-1 was abuse free? I've consistently said that there was both good and evil going on. Haven't you been listening? or too busy listening to yourself to hear what I've said? I do still believe that TWI-1 was a true movement of God...at least that's the way I see the good things that resulted. But some folks here like yourself just find that thought repugnant, and that's unfortunate.

Raf, I disagree with your reasons for the apology, and judging from Imbus's response just now, no apology will be forthcoming. Also, I'm getting tired of your namecalling. Please cut that out.

George, if you're referring to PFAL '77, your analogy doesn't fly. If that was really true, that PFAL 77 was God Breathed and he portrayed it as such, don't you think he would have made it one of those mandatory classes everyone should take? After all, it replaces the old one? As it turned out, I don't think any of us saw the finished product on tape, I know I didn't. I still disagree that adultery in TWI had its roots from PFAL.

Raf, What exactly are you asking me to apologize for? For equating Imbus's act with adultery? or for mentioning it here?

Watered Garden, I already agree with what you're saying so I'm not sure what you're point is. PFAL isn't 100% truth. It has errors.

Excathedra, I may not respond to you nearly as much as I could, or should, so it might not look like I'm listening to you; but please know that I do read and consider what you say.

Tom, there's plenty of accusatory b.s. to go around, and there have been plenty of things said that hurt me, as well. I think the problem why some folks get so emotional is maybe the level of hatred they have toward Wierwille and the BOT. Some folks just can't tolerate differing opinions. Therefore challenging very strong hateful emotions can be hurtful to those who harbor them. It happens to me as well sometimes.

Watered Garden, I agree with you, PFAL isn't God Breathed and Dr. Wierwille never suggested same. Regarding the woman caught in adultery, Jesus didn't condemn the woman. But he did call her action "sin". He said: "Go and sin no more".

Goey I don't think there are any meaningful parallels between David and Dr. Wierwille. That's your (and others who want to discredit Wierwille and PFAL) mindset fantasy. Dr. Wierwille was not a king and all way corps girls didn't "belong" to him. It is reported that Wierwille was a sex addict, who could have had "thousands of women". Geeze. So these thousands of women were all of them intimidated and feared into having sex, with repercussions if they failed to comply with the king? I don't buy it, it's too outlandish. I think most of these were consentual encounters. And there's some evidence of this, if you read "The Cult That Snapped". Apparently having sex with Wierwille in the large number of cases wasn't an intimidating experience. I'm not denying it never happened (please don't accuse me of that) just saying it wasn't the norm. It really doesn't make sense, otherwise I think you'd have many many more stories of abuse out there, and not just now either -- I think you would have heard it back then.

Garth: Garth, I firmly believe it's to Pawtucket's credit that folks like Mike and me haven't been banned. Free thought and speech is the best, otherwise we have another cult-like group, don't we? "Let's all think alike" is that really what you want?

MO, you've got me pegged all wrong, and I really don't know what you're talking about. I never suggested your children weren't abused or that the leadership was correct. I think your letting your mind wander into fantasy land.

Hope, if having a strong opinion on an issue and being unyielding about it is evidence of abuse, well, I think most of us can share in that. Regarding having compassion and empathy, I think all of us could use more all the time. Hope, you mentioned this more than once. What do you think happens when opinions differ? The differing opinions are discussed. If folks don't think much of the opinions, they shouldn't post. They shouldn't read what I have to say. I think maybe you just want me to be quiet? I won't believe what everyone is trying to relate because I was taught to abuse others? Please make some sense. I am always open to logic and reason, and have listened to folks, without calling them names.

Raf: I think the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" story is falsely applied to Wierwille, principally here at GS Cafe. There are other analogies that may be used, and I'm sure will be. But using that specific one, delightfully and gleefully with razor sharp precision brought forth from PFAL by some, is a giant fanciful leap to specifically degrade PFAL. I discussed this theory with a couple of old time twiggies last nite, and they thought it was a below-the-belt misapplication as I do. Yes, I think this is a GS propogation, much like the "Christ is Absent" false accusation. Repeat it long enough and loud enough and some will believe.

def 59 I'm taking fresh looks all the time, but making the giant leap that one or two sentences in PFAL, where he's not talking about himself at all, is the root cause of adultery in TWI, is something I don't assent to. You may believe it if you wish, it's your choice. Still haven't made the connection with that and PFAL, but I suppose theories and accusations about it will continue to fly.

Raf, yes I do see exactly that I committed fornication. I take responsibility for it; I made a boo boo. I guess to be honest, I take 50% responsibility; 50% was on the girl. NONE, on PFAL. Have a great evening, I'm done for now.

Yes. And I do so without using PFAL as the catalyst. Yes. Yes. I agree. I think we mostly have agreement here, def 59.

Watered Garden, This is what is being used as the strawman. Take something completely out of context, add some Wierwille hatred here, some evil surmisings there, and Voila! Adultery all started from PFAL! Disgusting. Lame and disgusting.

Goey: It really all depends on the mindset of the 17 year old. Some young people are responsible and know right from wrong....some haven't quite gotten to that level. But twisting a sentence from PFAL isn't the answer. It's lame and disgusting the way you and others debase and disparage PFAL, to make a point. It's got 1001 wonderful great principles, but you manage to twist a phrase out and claim that was the open door to adultery. What an irresponsible claim. I say Wierwille and the BOT did both good and evil works. But your unrelenting, unforgiving attacks on Wierwille and the BOT place no value on anything good they ever did, only the evil. Your thoughts and words more demonstrate Phariseeism than mine ever could.

MO, I read the rest of your post and not sure what you want me to say. Adults are responsible for their actions. Those not responsible are: children, the demented, and those who were narcotized.

Watered Garden, The man committed adultery as well. You're saying something in PFAL was the key that opened the door to adultery. Balderdash. I don't buy that gobbledygook. Like the "Christ is absent" false accusation. Take one phrase out of its context, and use that as a strawman to make all sorts of false accusations and excuses. It's lame and disgusting.

Raf: I forgot to mention another one: oh Minion of Lucifer

Um, what are the rules regarding namecalling? I've been called this and that, an idiot, a jerk, misogynist, etc. etc. Let's try to keep the debate civil, shall we? If folks can't make points without namecalling, perhaps calming down could help.

Shaz, of course I take personal responsibility for my actions. I'm not blaming it on anyone, even the Corps girl who seduced me. It's all my doing. But what I did was not adultery, wasn't committing a crime against another human being, since we were both consenting adults, and I certainly don't quote some lame excuse about a sentence in PFAL causing my promiscuity.

Zix, you're assuming again that folks had the brains and wills of innocent children. Come on. Children are children; adults are adults. I don't think its fair or honest to put all the blame on Wierwille and the BOT. Exceptions: children, the demented, or those that were allegedly drugged and thereafter raped ( I think Excathedra is the only one I heard who falls in this category but I could be wrong).