oldiesman

I just want to get my facts and opinions right. If they're saying that they're the "only household of God", that might suggest that they're saying other churches or Christians, aren't in the body of Christ. I don't think that's true, I think they readily acknowledge others in "the family"; perhaps I'm confusing "household" with "family". My bad.

If a styrofoam cup is one way God chose to bring the Water of Life to some folks, it's got merit, for sure.

They actually said that TWI was the only household of God? I'd be interested to see what they're teaching, cause I know of a person close to me who needs physical help, like being taken to twig because they have a physical handicap. So far, they've done squat for this person. This is an old-time, Way Corps grad, a person faithful to TWI for years and years and years. So much for the "household" taking care of each other.

Goey, WOW, thanks for saying some nice things about TWI. And I as well, most likely got saved as a result of folks in TWI. It's nice to hear we most likely shared that ultimate experience in TWI.

Yeah that was me. It was a letter of April or May or June of 1989. A companion to the March letter. I thought I made a copy of it years ago and had it somewhere but I don't know.

Hope, I don't quite get what you're saying. Didn't he send that letter out to all the Corps? I thought we agreed on that.

The godly teachings were available elsewhere, but not where I was at the time, in my location nor my heart and mind. TWI was there to meet that need, and met those needs. My mother was in TWI a year before I was, which had a big effect on my involvement. Would I have learned these things anyway? I can't answer that, I don't know. But the fact remains, I DID learned them in TWI. Also, I didn't think that the idea that salvation by grace, and speaking in tongues, along with SIT and prophecy in a fellowship, were all that rampant in the early seventies...and certainly not from the Roman Catholic church where I came from. I beg to differ. The benefits may not be materialistic or carnal, but they certainly are tangible. It improved my family life, since all of us were involved in TWI. We got along and were likeminded, whereas before we weren't. It developed more harmony in the home. Can't say too much about business life. With interpersonal relationships, on certain levels it helped, being able to separate truth from error, with my spiritual halitosis detector. As far as helping me in my old age, as I get old, its an enduring comfort to have important biblical truths and concepts to believe in, and know are true. That's the legacy TWI left me and thousands of others, despite all its faults and failures.

Coolwaters, I make my assessment that there are thousands of folks who don't post on the internet, who are appreciative of their involvement in TWI and what they learned and experienced. Just look at all the folks in CES, CFF, other groups, who acknowledge many TWI teachings and concepts. I personally know lots of folks who appreciate TWI and their experience, who never post. There are folks who are even still involved who've experienced benefits, even now. As far as the lasting benefits I received; learning about Jesus as my enduring Lord and Saviour; Christ in You, the Hope of Glory; salvation by grace; speaking in tongues; sonship rights; dead not alive now; Jesus is not God; believing the bible is a book that makes some sense; just to name a few.

Raf, the way I see it, the 1989 letter does give glory to God and ascribes motives that glorify God. Craig wanted to continue moving the Word, and What the Hay described this well in an earlier post. Here's a quote from the letter: Now if you think TWI was evil from the start, nothing but a stupid cult, I guess you think the above is stupid, ungodly and self-serving. It's your choice how to look at it.

John, that happened years after the 1989 letter....

I wasn't comparing Craig to Moses. That's your surmising. I was comparing the action Moses took, with the action Craig took. That's the example Craig gave in that letter. I think there were other biblical principles he cited; I wish that letter were around.

Goey, the way I saw it, Craig was asking for a clean slate and asking folks to start fresh and new, make a new commitment to move the Word with him. Obviously many folks weren't willing to do that because of the previous mess. Nasty lies on both sides are unjustified; but the action of the letter and subsequent months were good because it forced people to think about their lives, and what they were going to decide to do. If a person had a genuine disagreement with Craig that was bad enough not to be resolved, like VF thinking Craig was worshipping other gods; yeah, its better for him to leave, to clean up the household. I probably wouldn't last long as a parishoner in the Catholic Church, thinking the Pope is worshipping other gods. Similarly lots thought Craig was off the wall and wasn't going to change; it's better those folks departed and left others alone who wanted to remain and give him the benefit of the doubt. Yes. I haven't heard from anyone who said they tried to address their concerns with Don Wierwille in 1989...that was the context of my statement. I can't speak for LCM, but Don was there taking questions. I personally believe that anyone who really wanted to try to work things out, in 1989, could have if they wanted to. The people who didn't want to, just didn't do it, it's that simple. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion and if that's what you think, so be it. It's obvious you never appreciated TWI as I did, and it didn't benefit you like it did me and thousands of others.

This time, I DO hope they teach that adultery is not as simple as shaking hands.

When LCM announced that the Word was over the World, a family member told me about it and of course I thought it was idiotic. I said to myself "gee, and it's only 1 1/2 hours to the nearest fellowship." It seems TWI might have done alot better when the Word wasn't over the world, but fellowship was right around the corner.

Alfakat, perhaps that was true before the March 1989 letter, but immediately after the letter was written and during those months after, I was in contact with Don Wierwille. Don's phone lines and doors were open to anyone who wanted to discuss any problems they had with TWI, at that time. Don told me over the phone that they did a bad job of communication in previous years, presumably due to their being in a fog. But folks who got that 1989 letter and who had concerns and questions, and who wanted them addressed by the BOT, had an option to discuss them if they wanted. I heard that directly from Don and the staff there.

Alfakat, yes peace comes from the Prince of Peace, but it's quickly extinguished if you're arguing all the time. That's the way it was for me in 1989...I'd go to twig and argue with the coordinators about how evil or screwed up, not evil not screwed up, Craig and the BOT were. Not good. And I bet you take any other religion, how long do you think they'd put up with you, you speaking evil against their leaders? I'm sure they'd ask you to take a hike after awhile.

What the Hay, a very interesting comment that I hadn't thought about. Thanks. Also, PFAL was still around in 1989 and subsequent years. I don't know when they cancelled it, but it was around for a few years after 1989. Hey, maybe it was their abandonment of PFAL that had some negative impact as well?

Zshot, I felt this way in my twig in 1989. The wife of the twig coordinator, continually thinking evil and badmouthing TWI, was against Craig and TWI, whispering, murmuring against, etc. I begged, pleaded with my twig coordinators, her and her husband, to write down all the problems they had with Craig and the BOT, and address these things directly with them. I offered to go with them myself to hq to work it out. They refused to do it, even on the phone. These were folks who I stayed with for 7 years, people who I followed from the Bronx, to move close to upstate, just because I thought we were close friends and wanted to be in their twig. So anyway, one day the husband told me privately, that if he weren't married, he would have stuck with TWI, but he didn't want to break up his family. But the thing is, as she was badmouthing and thinking evil about Craig and the BOT, she was teaching "we need to love". Yeah, she loved me so much she couldn't give a damn about what I thought; or have the simple courtesy to just at least meet me half way and try to address the concerns they had directly with the BOT. No way. But yet, she teaches about Love at twig. YUCK.

Hope, great point. Thanks.

John, I thought he WAS being loving. He was finally cleaning house of folks who were badmouthing him. It's not just a question of not being loyal; these folks were into badmouthing, whispering, murmuring, suspicious minds. Asking those folks to leave, was being very loving, especially to folks who wanted to fellowship in peace. One of the statements he wrote was "you don't try to co-exist with gangrene; you cut it out." Let's not kid ourselves, folks were given plenty of time, years, to make up their minds. Even after that, they could have come back if they wanted it. But their opinions of Craig and the BOT were evil. I thought it was better they left, personally.

Some arguments for staying may have been carnal, but others were biblical. I remember a second letter Craig wrote a month later...dated April-June 1989, which expands and gives biblical references relating to his decision. I remember something said about Moses saying to the children of Israel, he who is with me, come over here and stand with me, or something like that. (Was Moses being carnal, asking folks to stand with him, etc.?) The others that didn't stand with Moses, left. I think that second letter expounds the biblical justification for Craig's decision. I can tell you just from my experience, I think a lot of the biblical profit of doing what he said, was just plain peace. It was a real drag going to twig and trying to fellowship with folks who thought Craig and the BOT were evil. Withdrawing from those folks, was one of the best and most peaceful decisions I made. Like a breath of fresh air.

LLP Thanks for your response. It's good to hear that TWI folks are generally supportive of the film, which I think makes a great deal of sense. Try and see it soon, I think you'll be blessed.

I would be more inclined to think that Donna misspoke, rather than what you're surmising...

What you said before, and what you're saying now is an assumption, a giant leap, something you are surmising. I'm sure Donna didn't mean that Craig was taking the place of Christ. That's your assumption. This sounds similar to something I heard during Athletes of the Spirit. Something to the effect that "the minister takes the place of Christ". This is what some thought, those who wanted to think evil of Craig and TWI. They never said that the minister takes the place of Christ, but that's what some folks wanted to think.

Raf, that's news to my ears. Do we have a reference? And why didn't VF share that with me, when I spoke with him personally? ( i don't expect you to know the answer, just wondering)