oldiesman

Watered Garden, I agree with you, PFAL isn't God Breathed and Dr. Wierwille never suggested same. Regarding the woman caught in adultery, Jesus didn't condemn the woman. But he did call her action "sin". He said: "Go and sin no more".

Goey I don't think there are any meaningful parallels between David and Dr. Wierwille. That's your (and others who want to discredit Wierwille and PFAL) mindset fantasy. Dr. Wierwille was not a king and all way corps girls didn't "belong" to him. It is reported that Wierwille was a sex addict, who could have had "thousands of women". Geeze. So these thousands of women were all of them intimidated and feared into having sex, with repercussions if they failed to comply with the king? I don't buy it, it's too outlandish. I think most of these were consentual encounters. And there's some evidence of this, if you read "The Cult That Snapped". Apparently having sex with Wierwille in the large number of cases wasn't an intimidating experience. I'm not denying it never happened (please don't accuse me of that) just saying it wasn't the norm. It really doesn't make sense, otherwise I think you'd have many many more stories of abuse out there, and not just now either -- I think you would have heard it back then.

Garth: Garth, I firmly believe it's to Pawtucket's credit that folks like Mike and me haven't been banned. Free thought and speech is the best, otherwise we have another cult-like group, don't we? "Let's all think alike" is that really what you want?

MO, you've got me pegged all wrong, and I really don't know what you're talking about. I never suggested your children weren't abused or that the leadership was correct. I think your letting your mind wander into fantasy land.

Hope, if having a strong opinion on an issue and being unyielding about it is evidence of abuse, well, I think most of us can share in that. Regarding having compassion and empathy, I think all of us could use more all the time. Hope, you mentioned this more than once. What do you think happens when opinions differ? The differing opinions are discussed. If folks don't think much of the opinions, they shouldn't post. They shouldn't read what I have to say. I think maybe you just want me to be quiet? I won't believe what everyone is trying to relate because I was taught to abuse others? Please make some sense. I am always open to logic and reason, and have listened to folks, without calling them names.

Raf: I think the "every woman in the kingdom belonged to the king" story is falsely applied to Wierwille, principally here at GS Cafe. There are other analogies that may be used, and I'm sure will be. But using that specific one, delightfully and gleefully with razor sharp precision brought forth from PFAL by some, is a giant fanciful leap to specifically degrade PFAL. I discussed this theory with a couple of old time twiggies last nite, and they thought it was a below-the-belt misapplication as I do. Yes, I think this is a GS propogation, much like the "Christ is Absent" false accusation. Repeat it long enough and loud enough and some will believe.

def 59 I'm taking fresh looks all the time, but making the giant leap that one or two sentences in PFAL, where he's not talking about himself at all, is the root cause of adultery in TWI, is something I don't assent to. You may believe it if you wish, it's your choice. Still haven't made the connection with that and PFAL, but I suppose theories and accusations about it will continue to fly.

Raf, yes I do see exactly that I committed fornication. I take responsibility for it; I made a boo boo. I guess to be honest, I take 50% responsibility; 50% was on the girl. NONE, on PFAL. Have a great evening, I'm done for now.

Yes. And I do so without using PFAL as the catalyst. Yes. Yes. I agree. I think we mostly have agreement here, def 59.

Watered Garden, This is what is being used as the strawman. Take something completely out of context, add some Wierwille hatred here, some evil surmisings there, and Voila! Adultery all started from PFAL! Disgusting. Lame and disgusting.

Goey: It really all depends on the mindset of the 17 year old. Some young people are responsible and know right from wrong....some haven't quite gotten to that level. But twisting a sentence from PFAL isn't the answer. It's lame and disgusting the way you and others debase and disparage PFAL, to make a point. It's got 1001 wonderful great principles, but you manage to twist a phrase out and claim that was the open door to adultery. What an irresponsible claim. I say Wierwille and the BOT did both good and evil works. But your unrelenting, unforgiving attacks on Wierwille and the BOT place no value on anything good they ever did, only the evil. Your thoughts and words more demonstrate Phariseeism than mine ever could.

MO, I read the rest of your post and not sure what you want me to say. Adults are responsible for their actions. Those not responsible are: children, the demented, and those who were narcotized.

Watered Garden, The man committed adultery as well. You're saying something in PFAL was the key that opened the door to adultery. Balderdash. I don't buy that gobbledygook. Like the "Christ is absent" false accusation. Take one phrase out of its context, and use that as a strawman to make all sorts of false accusations and excuses. It's lame and disgusting.

Raf: I forgot to mention another one: oh Minion of Lucifer

Um, what are the rules regarding namecalling? I've been called this and that, an idiot, a jerk, misogynist, etc. etc. Let's try to keep the debate civil, shall we? If folks can't make points without namecalling, perhaps calming down could help.

Shaz, of course I take personal responsibility for my actions. I'm not blaming it on anyone, even the Corps girl who seduced me. It's all my doing. But what I did was not adultery, wasn't committing a crime against another human being, since we were both consenting adults, and I certainly don't quote some lame excuse about a sentence in PFAL causing my promiscuity.

Zix, you're assuming again that folks had the brains and wills of innocent children. Come on. Children are children; adults are adults. I don't think its fair or honest to put all the blame on Wierwille and the BOT. Exceptions: children, the demented, or those that were allegedly drugged and thereafter raped ( I think Excathedra is the only one I heard who falls in this category but I could be wrong).

Pawtucket, Blaming adultery on mind control and PFAL isn't where I'd like to be, and those views disgust me. But thanks for letting me give my opinion on this website.

Raf: The way I see it, she's blaming it on something Wierwille said in PFAL, that's now being used as an excuse why some assented to the adultery. It was never ok. Even if that's true (we really don't know if that's the motive in every case) it still shouldn't be used as an excuse by any participant. Doesn't mean anything. If people said that the MOG said to go out in the backyard and shoot your neighbor, would you do it? Again, its hard to definitively say why folks committed adultery, it obviously was a mess. But blaming PFAL isn't the answer. This is something like saying "TWI taught that Christ was absent", which you assent to. It's a damn lie. We all know what Dr. Wierwille taught and the spirit and context in which he taught it. If you want to say we got off the deep end with Bible Worship, go ahead. But we loved Jesus in TWI, read about him all the time, knew him and prayed in his name. But take a word, sentence or phrase out of the context in which it was presented, and twist its meaning, present it as a reason for sin... seems to be no problem for some folks.

Zix, this is where you (and presumably most posters on Greasespot) and I vehemently disagree. The way I see it, just because some leaders erased adultery as a trangression, doesn't give those who engage in it, a free pass. Where did you get that idea? Any biblical references? A person engaging in an activity, provided they have all their marbles, is responsible for their actions in that activity. I think some folks can't accept that and that's unfortunate. What if certain leaders acted as though stealing was ok? Does that mean we condone stealing? You can if you choose, or you stand against it. But the bible says reprove, rebuke and exhort. If you coexist with leaders who condone it, that's your choice. Another choice is to leave. Another choice is to reprove, rebuke and exhort, and some women did, when confronted with the temptation to commit adultery. I'm sure some still do. As far as punishment, hopefully we can say we've all asked (and continue to ask) God to forgive us for our transgressions.

MO, blaming PFAL on blowjobs is #1 right now, but I'm sure you and Coolwaters will put something together that tops that one! hhahahha ha ha ha

Being called a woman hater because I expect folks to accept some responsibility for their actions?Hope, are you ok?

Having sex with someone else's husband is NEVER ok. That's why it had unwritten and unspoken acceptance, cause everybody knew it was wrong. BUT THEY DID IT ANYWAY. But you see, instead of owning up to one's own actions, shifting the blame was commonplace. There had to have been a reason, and it just can't be the participants weakness of moral character. What happened to "just say no"? Thumbs up to those who did.We learn that adultery is sinful from a very early age. We learn from our past religions, our parents, the marriages we know about and the vows expressed. All of us knew adultery was wrong, yet some engaged in it anyway. And so, they were too young to figure out that adultery was wrong? Too stupid or demented? That's why the victim mentality blame-the-BOT on everything propagandists must portray young females who engaged in adultery as very very young teenagers, too young to know that adultery is wrong, or too stupid, too helpless or demented, to know that adultery was wrong. They get a free pass, and voila, the entire blame goes to Wierwille and the BOT. But NOW, and new theory has developed: This is one of the more insane theories I've heard. The one making this claim commits adultery, doesn't accept personal responsibility for her own actions, and to add insult to injury, blames PFAL! And get's HUGS at Greasespot Cafe! I guess I just don't get it.

The last thing on my mind and heart was to try to dish out any guilt or remose on Imbus. However, I think one would do well to own up and have some personal responsibility in cases like this. I mean, she's suggesting that PFAL was the spiritual cause for her giving a blowjob?

In the late '80's/early '90's there was a rumor floating around that George H.W. Bush was born of the wrong seed. I wrote a letter to Craig, and asked him. He said "no, but he is being influenced by them." I was kinda hoping he said yes, cause I couldn't stand bush. "read my lips"