oldiesman

I like Burt Lancaster. :)-->

Rand writes: But the question is, is that the way God wants or desires us to live? Being free from our brothers? Being free from everything else, except our own egos to relish and worship?

To me, Howard Allen's statement only reinforces the idea that the sales were to advance the religion, or ministry coffers, etc. Yes, it's about profit, but for the purpose of moving the religion. On the other hand, if he wrote a book and selling it in the bookstore and all the profit went in his own pocket, that would probably be an example of having a profit motive other than for the advancement of the religion. :)-->

Shelly, don't really know, except maybe back then, I was renewing my mind to biblical concepts, verses, etc. You know, those retemories. Quoting daily those verses of scripture and feeling the need to live up to those. Asking myself, "What would Jesus do in this situation?" I don't ask that question hardly anymore. I should.

Danny, sorry to hear you broke your leg. Geeze that must hurt, get well soon! :)-->

Seems like a fair and reasonable conclusion ... :)-->

I think the reason why twi still uses his stuff is because Donna M. is there, and she's still married to him. There's still a connection there. So I think for respect for Donna, they're still using Craig's teachings.Danteh1 and Uncle H, I think you're off the mark about LCM still running things. He's gone from any decision making. Finished. History. I think you underestimate the power and authority of Rosalie and Donna, and how much real authority they had in the 1990's. That one-two combo knocked him out of the box. Actually, his own evil works knocked him out, but they took over officially when the time was appropos. :)-->

Oakspear, I guess the point I was trying to make was, there's more to fellowship than just the teaching part. There's spending time talking with folks, singing, praying, manifestations: you know the routine. You don't get that from a tape. We were taught that all that is a biblical principle in the new testament: fellowship with the saints. But don't get me wrong, if you have to travel 3 hours to get all that, and you don't like to travel and consider traveling that day to be a hassle, I'd say forget it. Personally, I like to travel and might do it for just one day. Wouldn't do it on a regular basis though. Who would? :)-->

If you can stop for a moment and remember the godly aspects of twi, if not now, then the twi of the past, and focus on that and dispose of the ungodliness, i.e., the sex scandals, the corps cultness, the condemnation of other religions, etc., then you might have what exists now in CES. I don't really know, I'm just surmising, because I've never been to one of their meetings. I suspect that's how it might be. From what I've seen of getting their free newsletters and buying some of their tapes, it seems like they are an improvement. :)-->

I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression that at one time, if a corps person got dismissed or screwed up or had to leave for some reason, and if they were married, their spouse had to leave as well. If that was the policy at one time, then I think Donna is getting a free pass, for not being forced to adhere to that same policy. If I'm wrong, then never mind. :D--> But no matter what, she's still there because she's got lots of power and authority and nobody is going to challenge that. And of course, it doesn't hurt that she's the best of friends with Rosalie. :)-->

Why? did you read what Uncle H said about innocent corps spouses getting the boot, simply because they were married to corps spouses who had to leave? That was the policy some years ago. I gather it might have changed from what Oakspear has said (it sounds like its more arbitrary now). So why should Donna get a free pass now. If marriage was such an important commitment back then, so much so that one had to leave with their spouse, why not now?

Someone Unloading Their Sunday Night Cassettes :)-->

which is why she should get booted. :)-->

Shelly, actually I think I'm the opposite of you. When I was in twi, I would have probably let it slip, thinking positives and loving thoughts, thinking about how I will receive back for giving. Today, I'd be running after them in a rage, demanding my money back! and on the way to my vehicle, I'd yell at the beggars asking for money outside the supermarket doors.

Uncle H, some of us have been asking this question for years. I think the answer is, she's been running TWI for a decade with her good friend, Rosalie, and she's got a lot of power and authority in there, too much for any faction to rebel. If twi were fair and equitable, she should have been given the same sentence as so many corps brothers and sisters of ours who had to leave with their spouse. But no, she's special, that also might be why the rules have changed, of late. Now, they make arbitrary decisions; whatever they feel like doing, they do. -->

I never denied twi has/had any errors. where did you get that from? -->

here are a few:Salvation by grace, not of works speaking in tongues the dead are still dead, awaiting the return the bible is much more understandable and readable the fact that these truths are taught elsewhere is irrelevant. I learned them in twi ... so that counts for something. and these things weren't all that readily available and rampant where I was back in 1973 ... :)-->

I think they died off when the Word got over the World. :P--> ;)-->

Steve Lortz, I think folks have to decide for themselves whether CES is being dishonest, or being dishonest enough to turn away from. I haven't seen or heard anything that persuades me to turn away from them or mark and avoid them. I think their books are worth reading; their tapes are worth hearing. You don't have to agree with everything they preach ... that's a given. Why not let people believe what they want to and stop being so anal retentive about it? :)-->

Satori, I was attempting to respond to something Danny said, and the way I saw it, that he was complaining about CES not being objective. The point was if your view and beliefs are so much better, start your own group and put some hard work into it, if you think what you belief is that much better. Just food for thought. This argument means little as I see it. If the point you are making is that CES is fudging their claims about themselves, ok, I see your point, but it's a little anal retentive. So what? The way I see it, hardly anyone in the field of religion and doctrine is all that objective to the point of changing their views that quickly. Are you really surprised that CES is holding fast what they believe is truth we learned from TWI? I'm very glad they are holding fast some teachings. :)-->

Sure, but I think most of it was repetitive. Not that hearing that God loves you several times a week is a bad thing. But I went to fellowship not only to hear some of the word but also to enjoy the fellowship with people. If you determine that the fellowship with people isn't worth it, then yeah, you might as well stay home and don't waste your time and listen to it on tape when you feel like it.

Yes. The way I see it, they apply the totality of evidence and research they've already engaged in, and formed beliefs that they choose are satisfactory and biblical. So what's the problem? They are human and can make mistakes as well. You can go on and on about "already determined beforehand" beliefs, and what they think are "right" doctrines. The fact remains the same. Are they not entitled to believe, hold fast, and communicate what they think is "right"? You seem to be making the case that they are unobjective and don't care to hear other viewpoints. Welcome to Religion in the USA, 2004. Welcome to dealing with human beings, who have formed beliefs. You are also free to start your own biblical research group, if you will, if you think you have the more accurate version. nothing wrong with that. but bear in mind it isn't just the doctrine they espouse but also the effort and will and commitment it takes to communicate it to others. That takes dedication and hard work. :)-->

The way I see it it's very simple, they've come to realize that certain teachings from twi are true, that is what they believe, and they are holding to those beliefs. Those teachings that they don't believe, they disposed of. Why ask or expect them to change? They believe what they believe. That's their menu. If you don't like their menu, you are free to go to another restaurant. :)-->

Some have done this, but I think JAL and CES and others don't want to stray from the teachings they espouse, because they believe them to be the truth. Why hold CES and JAL to a higher standard and burden to change their beliefs, than all the other religions out there? Those who want CES and JAL to change -- if it's so simple, why don't YOU change YOUR minds? For instance ... Would you walk into a baptist church and ask them to cancel water baptism? or at least explore the possibility that they may be wrong? Would you walk into a Roman Catholic church and ask them to stop believing that Mary is the mother of God? or the Mediatrix? Or at least research the possibility that they might be wrong? good luck ... :)-->

Lindy, in some cases, some of those things may apply. I can't say they don't, can you? If folks are there and say they are satisfied and happy with it, geeze, that's their experience and testimony. It's their life. :)-->