oldiesman

When the predator sins, it's called sin. When the prey sins, it's called ..... hey whatever, it doesn't matter, who cares, let's just focus on the predators sins. Please show me from the bible your standard for living and judging.

Garth, try reading what I wrote in the supposal context I wrote it. Tom, I never suggested either viewpoint, and don't defend anyone's actions when they're wrong. The difference between your thinking and mine seems to be, that you give some folks a free pass and complete exoneration ... while fully condemning others. i simply don't agree with that viewpoint.

I beg to differ with you, it wasn't clear. In fact, it was dark and murky. Which was why this whole topic was kept quiet.I think EVERYBODY knew adultery is and was wrong we didn't need twi to tell us so. We learned early on before twi, from our parents, society, etc. The fact that twi didn't teach it was wrong, shouldn't have been, and shouldn't be now, used as an EXCUSE for people's actions. Otherwise, then let Dr. Wierwille off the hook for LITERALLY AND SINCERELY believing that adultery was only spiritual, and there was nothing wrong with the illicit sexual contact. Think about that for a moment. What if he really believed that? Would you call him an evil person? I wouldn't. But some of you have no hesitation to call him evil regardless, because you know, then and now, that the stuff you heard from him about adultery being ok was baloney. You're so sharp concerning Wierwille's evil words and deeds, but you can't see that other people are capable of thinking and doing evil also? The women who said NO! deserve a round of applause.

Of course, but the premise of this entire thread is that the mogs of twi had "absolute authority" over everything. They didn't. When they screwed up, they screwed up. So did some of the women. Uncle Hairy said: I totally, vehemenently disagree. People are responsible for their actions. When two people commit adultery, TWO people are WRONG. That's all folks.

Because you're suggesting that the woman is either too stupid or coerced to know that adultery is wrong. Sorry, I don't buy your theory. Women of twi knew adultery was wrong, which was why many of them said:NO Again, my belief is that adults are responsible for their actions, unless they are mentally retarded, children, or narcotized.

oh come on... i can't stand that doctrinal section.

Raf, what does that mean?

Rascal, you mean this verse?Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. or this one? Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. or this one? Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. or this one? Gal 6:18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with your spirit. Amen.

These could get hot -- early 1970's teaching pamplets. Oldies but Goodies

John, excellent point, and something to really think about. Thanks for sharing.

Johniam, thanks for your support. I have some different opinions as some posters, but doesn't mean I'm calling them liars; just coming from a different perspective. Because I don't swallow whole what some posters think, I'm labelled as calling them liars. Some folks can't or won't accept that folks have different opinions than theirs. I sometimes wonder what would happen if 50 pro-twi folks starting posting at GS? would some posters be able to handle the dissent and lack of acceptance without the namecalling and labelling? Imbus, you make a very good point. Sometimes I feel like "the truth" lies somewhere in between what Rascal and I are saying. Careful consideration of both perspectives isn't a bad idea.

if you have the time, put all of them on individually and you should do better ... good luck.

Rascal, I buy this more than I do the mind control, helpless victim tales. Here you have three women who did the right thing, stood up for themselves and their morality, and were tossed because of it. Hey, that's not an unlikely story, is it? Lots of folks fall into that category. Are they all victims? It really all depends on one's point of view. One may be thankful for the "good" once experienced from twi and what was learned, and lots of folks are. I'm glad those women stood up for themselves and although they were defintely mistreated and when they were booted, at first they felt alone, it was definitely the right thing to do and they didn't compromise their integrity. On a personal note, my tale of leaving twi didn't involve sex, but it involved something about my integrity and though I did the right thing, I was labelled a trouble maker because of it. Hey, no problem... They didn't lose everything by leaving twi, because it says in the bible that our treasures and rewards for standing on the word are laid up in heaven. They lost their friends, families and acquaintences? I have a somewhat different outlook. If their so-called friends, families and acquaintces couldn't give a damn about their feelings, or what they thought and what motivated them to leave -- well then I say to hell with the so-called friends, families and acquaintences. You're better off without them. I guess we can look at everyone as victims if by that you mean we lost everything by leaving twi. yes we lost some, but we also learned a few things and some of us can still be thankful for the godly elements and not think everything was evil and wrong ...

Does anyone have old Way Magazines they want to sell? These seem to be going well... Way Magazines

Digger, if your motives in giving money were love and wanting God to be glorified, God remembers your loving efforts and it certainly didn't go for nought, no matter what twi-2 does with those funds. that's the way i look at it, and seems to work for me...

It really would depend on the mind set of the participant involved, but I do question that those engaged in that activity thought it was a requirement to service the mog in that way; I think most freely availed themselves to do it; others were abused, but I would say generally, no, folks who did that sort of thing didn't think it was sexual humiliation at the time (those who thought it might be, or found it distasteful didn't do it, obviously.) rascal, i still haven't bought the idea that these women were "required" as you say to do this....you make it sound like they had no will of their own. i still don't see that...it sounds to me like you always must portray them as brainwashed, mind-controlled children to get your point across...

Never went and never had any desire to. Folks who freely availed themselves to go into the corps, placed themselves in a position to be required to submit to this discipline. Even this can't be compared to those who were sexually humiliated in Iraq...not even close...

I'm not saying that some folks weren't motivated by fear. But fear isn't the only motive that activates decisions. Here's what we learned in twi, which i still agree with. Why do we do things? 1- Self Preservation 2- Self Recognition 3- Fear 4- Love I think all of these motivational forces were in play in various folks lives. The analogy given at the beginning of this thread is too narrow and doesn't represent the whole truth.

Hi Danny, I generally don't post on evenings and weekends. Hope everyone had a nice weekend. Yeah, the allegations here don't apply very well. On the one hand, you've got people being forced to do humiliating things at gunpoint. On the other hand, you have folks who freely avail themselves of a program where they are to obey a man of god. If they don't like it, or if it was too harsh treatment for them, "there's the door". Many did leave the corps too. This seems to be a key element in the mind control propaganda mindset. You must have been brainwashed to have submit yourself to a loud-mouth balding man with a large forehead, right? It couldn't have been for other reasons...no...you had to be brainwashed. You COULDN'T make decisions on your own...Yes you could folks. It doesn't apply because those Iraq prisoners were there at gunpoint. There's a difference.

if they told you to jump off a cliff, would you jump?

doesn't apply because there was no "absolute authority" in twi if someone has you held at gunpoint, THATS absolute authority...

here's a Way myth: V's pee pee was as active as John Holmes's...

One thing I remember now that may confirm this is Dr saying repeatedly that our ministry wasn't a healing ministry. "if miracles never happen, it's still the Word" that may be an explanation why although since miracles and healings are Gods prerogatives it's His call. i thought the statement by Dr "the greatest of all miracles is the new birth" fit very well with our ministry and we certainly saw lots of that in TWI-1.

wyteduv58, doesn't surprise me that God blessed us in TWI-1...I experienced healing myself, not nearly as dramatic as that, but did involve my leg which was in pain and was scheduled for a 10-mile marathon the next day. Thanks for sharing.

#1 should be Chris Geer...