oldiesman

All it takes is some common horse sense to acknowledge that adults are responsible for their actions. You have no problem whatever accessing responsibility and blame when it comes to Victor Paul and the BOT -- But you can't or won't see it with others, continuing on with the victim mentality mindset excuses when it comes to others. That's why you totally missed Johniam's point about John 8, when Jesus called the actions of the woman (a powerless one), a sin. This thread morphed into other areas but I'll repeat something I mentioned before: Sadistic leadership is a conclusion of this thread, based upon a premise I don't agree with, which is making twi leadership akin to armed military, who have absolute authority over unarmed prisoners. It's excessive overkill and continuation of the victim mentality propaganda that twi leadership was all powerful and everyone else was helpless mindless idiots who couldn't make decisions on their own.

Along with Eph 4, how about Col 3: 8-17; Phil 4:8? Unless you believe these scriptures don't apply for Victor Paul and the BOT? Especially since these people are no longer our leaders, what's the profit with the everlasting words of condemnation? Geeze, if you can't see what Im saying we are miles apart.If folks want to engage in the endless condemnation, that's what they do. But i think it takes a pair to get on my case for trying to point out the culpability of others in the mix. I didn't get a chance to read the link you pointed out to me, I'm going to read it today. For all I know Swaggert isn't engaging in that conduct now and I think he repented of it, confess it as sin and received forgiveness. For me to harp on it endlessly (as the Wierwille haters do Wierwille for his misdeeds) is disobedience to those verses I quoted. Am I wrong?

Shaz, cheap shot. You and Sunesis and others who falsely accuse Victor Paul of racism, anti-Semitism and White SupremAcy are being abusive with your words. You whine and criticise endlessly about Victor Paul's abuse, but don't see what you are doing. Oops sorry for the distraction. Continue with your endless morbid spew.

Raf, you mention this but don't seem to see any problem (or it doesn't much matter since it doesn't bother you and you don't mention it) of folks who obsess, rant, vent their relentless morbid cruelties against Victor Paul and the BOT. You even justify it with scripture (Jesus condemnation of the Pharisees), and pretty much ignore other scriptures that you don't or won't apply here (Eph. 4:32, principally. There are others.). Suit yourself. God forbid Johniam or me or anyone else spoil or momentarily pause people's everlasting finger-pointing rock throwing spittle spewing condemnation of Victor Paul and the BOT, with trivialities such as the sins of anyone else.Sorry for distracting the Prevailing Mindset.

Sunesis, you ARE full of crap. If you want to view this as insulting, go ahead, because calling VP a white supremecist is insulting to him and to us to knew him. Who are you trying to fool? True white supremecists are enemies of Christians, because Christians believe in the integration of races. Was twi integrated? of course it was. If Dr Wierwille really were a white supremecist, he wouldn't have hung around anyone who was non-white. Your comment is almost as stupid as your statement that E.W. Kenyon was involved in Christian Witchcraft.

It's food for thought. Goodnite and have a nice evening...

What do you think of Zix's statement, ex?I gotta quote that below each of my posts, how do I do that?

Zix, do you realize what you said?You've essentially summarized what I've been trying to say for years. Bravo.

Mark LaneFrom his book Plausible Denial Pages 123-24

Sunesis, you're full of crap. Mark Lane was a lawyer for Willis Carto, the president of Liberty Lobby. (Hunt v. Liberty Lobby). Mr. Lane is Jewish. I suppose he's a white supremecist as well?

If a participant is involved in the same sin Wierwille engaged in, their actions and involvement are fair game, whether you think its relevant or not. Why are we constantly harping on them? Maybe you should ask, why are you and others constantly harping on Wierwille? What or who does that treatment serve, except feed some egos and give some satisfaction to those who want to vent themselves?Raf, speaking of Jesus's compassion, do you really think Jesus would be or approve of the relentlessly cruel talk against Wierwille on these threads? You mention Jesus was far more judgmental against the Pharisees than others....so then that justifies the treatment Wierwille gets from some posters? What of Ephesians 4:32? Does not that verse apply to Victor Paul, as well as others? Or applying it to him just doesn't matter? Victor Paul Wierwille taught lots of us God's word like we never knew it before, and you and others are equating him with a good-for-nothing Pharisee. Your one-sided treatment of him deserves rebuttal.

I suppose some folks were dysfunctional, but saying this about the vast majority is nothing more than a blanket put-down of commitments that folks made to want to love God more, and keep walking on the word more, after getting born again. Also, if the commitment was made to Father Wierwille, how does that explain folks staying around for years after his death? Or staying faithful to the word after his death (via twi and offshoots) I think it was more like things like POP happening, and later with Craig's smokeouts and Rosie's and Donna's legalism.

John, another good point you make. For folks who want to understand what you're saying, it's as plain as the nose on your face. Thanks...

I guess that would be true if Dr. Wierwille were asking the corps to take up arms to go to war. Sort of like President Bush asking folks to go to Iraq on the front lines, when he himself never served in that capacity? But how does that compare to Wierwille? Did he ask Way Corps folks to do anything he didn't do? He studied, witnessed, taught, stayed faithful to the word... seems to me the comparison doesn't quite fit ...

Good point John, thanks...

Oakspear, you're correct -- I thought you were talking about CFF. Thanks.

Tom, you're comparing sex with murder?Where the heck is your head at, man?

I think you're engaging in a form of German-bashing here. You're comparing Dr Wierwille to Hitler. Wierwille wasn't a military man bent on removing/destroying the Jewish population. You're comparing a Christian minister with perhaps the most diabolical figure of the 20th Century. Shame shame shame on you. (pointing index finger up and down at you.)

I opine they don't post because they have more important interests and don't want to get into any debates with the posters... what else could it be? do you actually think they have the same opinions about their father as some posters here do?

Tom, I personally know of three ex-twi women (and not spring chickens) who generally agree with my posts. Why won't they step up to the plate? I've asked them to post, but they're just not interested in debating, and have other, more important interests in life. That's their choice. I've often wondered why Dr. Wierwille's daughters don't post. Probably same reason... Tom, just a general suggestion and something you might want to consider: just because there's an opinion about something on the internet doesn't mean it's the prevailing opinion. Remember Richard Nixon's quote about "the silent majority"? It may be applied to this as well.

From what I've heard, participants aren't hassled about any other groups they might support and associate with. Also, CFF isn't as aggressive about collecting funds. (I'd be interested to hear what their take is on "Christians Should Be Prosperous"). Otherwise I think it's sort of like twi in the early 70's. But since I've never gone to any of their fellowships, I could be mistaken.

Just Thinking, that's a great suggestion. On the flip side, did it ever occur to you that there are women, thinking and feeling twi and ex-twi women, who generally agree with what i've been saying?Consider it a possibility ... Have a great weekend, one and all...

Danny I think he earned a doctorate, only problem is, the institution he earned it from wasn't accredited. That was his fault, so if folks like you say he didn't earn it, so be it.Have you thought about or do you realize that the difference between a state accredited institution, and a non-accredited institution, may have nothing to do with the actual workload or curriculum, but may be something as simple as a few thousand dollars paid to the state, to get the license? Still, since Victor Paul was either too lazy, distracted, or poor to go to a state accredited institution, your contention that his doctorate isn't valid has merit. If you're referring to PFAL, I believe God worked in him to adapt it from the various teachings he learned from other men of God scattered across the continent, coupled with what he himself learned from his own study. Was it God Breathed? no. Did he get it by revelation? no. Doesn't make it any less godly, though. Just summarizing:His godly side: He was a Christian with a tremendous ability to teach God's Word and convey upon the listeners, respect for the written word. His dark side: he engaged in sexual harassment and adultery, plagiarism, drinking/smoking; at various times with a mean and condescending demeanor.

Houseisarockin It's possible there are, but that would depend on the facts in each case. I certainly think sexual overtures from Victor Paul and the BOT are sexual harassment, at least. People shouldn't have been harassed in any way, shape or form. So if that's sexual abuse then yeah, there are definitely instances. But it's where it crosses over into the participant actually engaging in the activity, where I bring in my examples. Those mentioned above, mental retardation, children, drugs, are all examples where I'd classify the woman as being a harmless victim. There may be others; folks are free to opine what they are.

Sadistic leadership is a conclusion of this thread, based upon a premise I don't agree with, which is making twi leadership akin to armed military, who have absolute authority over unarmed prisoners. It's excessive overkill. You can try to make a connection, a similarity ... but it just doesn't jive and you can't expect some folks to swallow it cause the comparisons are too dissimilar. (*) yourself