oldiesman

George, what's the point in your statement. In life, and dealing with religions and other entities, one either agrees with the doctrine, or disagrees, and decides from there what one wants to do, either way. If one gets to the point that ones disagreement is so big that one can't live with it, one leaves. That's exactly what happened. George, it's pretty difficult for me to reason with you if you now believe everything about your experience with twi was one big obscene waste of time. We are coming from opposite extremes. :)-->

Steve Lortz, this is where we part company. How in the world do you know it wasn't Wierwille's heart and desire to have the word over the world? To desire that for God to be glorified, and man to be blessed? I find your presumptuousness to be astounding. :)-->

I tend to disagree. I remember VP saying many times "work the word for yourself", "make it your own". etc. If one didn't agree with the doctrines VP and others were teaching, or did happen to research its proposed accuracy and found a different conclusion, one was free to leave, at any time. Some did leave. Many never came to begin with. But before TWI, I can't say I heard hardly anything about God that made sense. And talk about being dissuaded from thinking, geeze, being raised Roman Catholic, I can attest to that!! :)-->

John Lynn said: Excellent statement that I concur with, I've been agreeing and voicing this viewpoint on Waydale and Greasespot for years. He also said: Excellent statement that I agree with! He also said: I guess I've mellowed out some, I no longer agree with this -- I used to, but now I feel that disassociation with the truths taught in TWI and CES doesn't automatically mean spiritual detriment. :)-->

ok fine, then I shant condemn TWI for speaking evil of other religions. It's their right under freedom of speech. :)-->

That's why this whole topic is so hard to comment definitively on: one person's cult is another person's godly religion, and so forth. I fall on the side of freedom of religion. If you don't like someone's brand, just go elsewhere. But you don't have to continuously condemn or put down those who remain of a certain viewpoint other than yours. We did that in twi, WHY DO IT NOW? What makes you so right, and others so wrong? and visa versa ... I say live and let live ... :)-->

I do recall hearing something like that, but it never made any sense to me because if you were being eternally tortured in that way, you wouldn't know it, cause you'd be unconscious. :)-->

Coolwaters, I stand corrected. I've been around Greasespot long enough to know that I can't speak for everyone. So the above statement is a guess for most, not a fact. I suppose there were folks that hung around a long time but not necessarily because it was the godly thing for they themselves to do. :)-->

This seems to be at the heart of the disagreement. But I fall on the side of TWI-1 being a genuine, godly ministry. It did have its ungodly elements, people still do sin, yes; but lots of folks got born again, lots of folks learned more about God that made some sense, and folks got blessed along the way. That's why we hung around so long. TWI-1's open agenda was the real godly thing. It's what some did in secret that was the most hurtful. :)-->

yeah they ask for money, but all of those groups ask for money. ... when I go to the supermarket to buy milk and cookies and twinkies, they got those beggars ready to pounce on you when you exit the door asking for money all the time. i'm sick of it especially when i go shopping. money money money, it's part of our lifestyle :)-->

It doesn't make sense to me, could you elaborate further.Saying CES is a TWI clone is not enough to prove it's an evil outfit. Because lots of folks still believe that TWI had godly things about it. If the clones copy or imitate the godly things, and abandon the ungodly things, how can you call it evil? I don't see where they are going wrong. In fact, I think they may be an improvement. I would think this is true for now, but let's say they remain for years and years, then that won't be the case. People of whatever background may choose whatever level of involvement that suits them. I get their free newsletters and sometimes, buy some tapes. That's it. No strain, strife or struggle. :)-->

def59, that thought ran through my mind, but it seemed to me they never taught annihilation decisively enough. At least I never heard a decisive teaching by VP on it. I was out by 1991. :)-->

As I recall, TWI taught all along that those who aren't in the book of life in the end will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. That's it. I don't think they elaborated further, or if they did, not really that decisively. That's the impression I got, but really didn't examine it deeply. So the question remains, what happens in the lake of fire? I believe, total annihilation, as opposed to eternal pain and suffering. There's an excellent book on the topic of annihilation called The Fire That Consumes :)-->

Good point dmiller, thanks. :)-->

Satori Of course I'm just rendering an opinion, but that's what I've seen through life's experience, and just plain old common sense. Folks tend to think they are right, especially Christian folks. Nothing wrong with that. Not from what I've seen. But you are free to disagree if you wish. I thought the baby in the nursery comment you made was exactly that. Why get on their case if they think you would be better off coming to their baby? Isn't that what all religions think, that they're on the right track? At least doctrinally, I see this clearly. I think you are being presumptuous and saying things we don't know yet and haven't yet been proven. CES (John Lynn) has stated they wish to eat the fish, and spit out the bones. What does that mean? I think it means they wish to keep the goodies of TWI, and abandon the errors. We can hold them to that standard. I think they've done a good job, so far, but they're not perfect, we know that too. But I just don't see them repeating the same mistakes as twi-2. If they have, you are free to point them out and argue your point. It's a great statement, isn't it? Originally made by an intelligent GS poster. I'd like to leave it alone and don't want to change or revise it; it really speaks for itself, and needs no interpretation or defense from me. You are free to disagree if you wish. :)-->

I still don't see the point in getting on CES's case, or condemning them, cause they think they're right. All religions think they're right. ... :)-->

Rosalie's response to John: I wonder what would have happened had John & Hope gone to headquarters? Probably the same result. But personally, I think I would have taken Rosalie up on her offer, if for no other reason than to communicate, personally, my discontent and suggestions. I think I would have played their game, one more time ... :)-->

Rottiegirl,Another derail, but over the weekend I went to a friend's house and saw the cutest Rottweiler; had to squeeze his cheeks ;)--> So has John Lynn posted anywhere yet?

EX Ex, to answer your question, John Schoenheit emailed me the following information years ago, and I communicated this information on Waydale, under my name at that time "ppolizotto". This info. was copied onto Greasespot and noted HERE go all the way to the bottom and it's there as well. :)-->

Steve, this is probably one reason why I like them. They acknowledge that TWI was a genuine ministry at one time. They take the goodies from twi, and drop the errors. (or at least have tried, or made some attempts, at some points.) It appears to be an improvement to me, at least an improvement of what exists in twi today. Ok, so its probable they aren't correct on some doctrines. And who among us is 100% correct on all the doctrines? Eat the goodies, and spit out the bones. Have a nice weekend, one and all! :)-->

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

They advance a product and they are entitled to receive fruit from their labors of producing and promoting that product.Those of us who can use and get some benefit or enjoyment or satisfaction from the products people produce, will pay for it. Such is life. :)-->

How many different Christian denominations are there in the U.S., and how many of them may be accused of engaging in this type of activity, if one wishes to engage in that type of accusation? Most, if not all, I presume. I prefer to look on CES' doctrinal teachings as beliefs that you or I may or may not concur with; rather than they must have some sinister evil selfish motive behind it ... :)-->

MJ412, I didn't quite understand this statement. Are you referring to the fact that they continue to commit adultery, or the fact that they don't preach against fornication? Both? Neither?

What i've surmised about Victor Paul, I will invoke here as well: we don't see everything clearly enough, and know everything big enough to know whether these folks' motives are self righteous and pompous, thus being frauds.Maybe you're confusing boldness, conviction and assuredness with self righteousness and pompous stubbornness? At any rate, God is the ultimate searcher of hearts ... and I am glad they preach about Jesus Christ and Him crucified ... :)-->