oldiesman

Raf Your question is a good one and for someone who really wants to know what twi teaches on this, it should be clarified. I thought the teaching was in one of the "By the Way" articles, but I see now it's not. I do remember a teaching (in written form) where they wrote that if the fetus can live outside the mother's womb (on its own) then it's breathing and therefore a living soul. Since that can happen in the third trimester, that would knock out partial birth.Perhaps we can hear from someone presently in twi to verify or not verify. I'd like to know myself. What I saw was written perhaps over 20 years ago ... who knows, they may have changed that too ...

Just wanted to bring this one back up to the top, in response to the recent decision to block the partial birth abortion ban. It's disgusting, isn't it? U.S. District Judge Phyllis Hamilton's ruling agrees with abortion rights activists that a woman's right to choose is paramount, and that it is therefore "irrelevant" whether a fetus suffers pain, as abortion foes contend. That second part is ridiculous. Can anything be more barbaric than sucking out a baby's brains before they're born? First or second trimester is one thing, but partial birth is so devilish. I agree with TWI's teaching on this, which has been that 1-2 trimester abortion is not murder, but 3rd is a no-no, so I'm glad twi at least had/has the good sense to teach folks to oppose that barbaric procedure.

I thought another possible reason why folks didn't speak up when they should have, knowing full well that adultery is wrong, was the fact that generally, folks don't want to upset the apple cart. It's a difficult thing to go on a crusade to make a point, even if one is absolutely correct. Most folks just live and try to get by, ignoring what they know in their heart is right, but can't bear to make themselves a "pain in the butt". For most, it's human nature to want to take the easy way out, to want to take the path of least resistance. I bet John Schoenheit felt super lousy when he was fired. But now, years later, I bet he feels so sweet and good and proud (in a good way) he took a stand back then, something he'll never forget.

Refiner, Another key TWI belief is remission and forgiveness of sins. Remission of sins (whereby one gets a "totally clean slate") is reserved for unsaved sinners. When the unsaved sinner receives Christ (Romans 10:9), they receive remission of sins. A totally clean slate. Forgiveness of sins is for the saved sinner. When the saved sinner sins, they break fellowship with God, and in order for that fellowship to be restored, the saved sinner must confess the sin to God. At that point, the saved sinner once again is in fellowship with God because of God's promise of forgiveness. Here's how Wierwille writes it, his comments of I John in brackets: "Fellowship is the Secret"Victor Paul Wierwille The New Dynamic Church pp. 78-79 It should also be noted that the above belief necessitaties the additional belief that there are no "degrees" of sin when it comes to confession and getting back in fellowship with God. Whether it's murder, adultery, stealing, lying, or another sin, the promise of forgiveness is there when one confesses the sin.

Goey It is difficult for me to believe, because it was kept so quiet. Had some of these folks been so "convinced" as one might say, it probably would have been more verbalized, more taught, more established. The fact that these elite kept it quiet, tells me something. Logically, they didn't want this information to get out, because they knew something was wrong with it.

Refiner, Another huge TWI belief that I now think is error, has been tithing for prosperity. According to Victor Paul Wierwille in his book "Christians Should Be Prosperous", Christian believers are limiting God's prosperity when we fail to tithe. When Christians fail to tithe, according to Wierwille, they become "afflicted, oppressed, diseased and defeated." When we tithe, we "open the way for God's financial and material prosperity to flow to us." Tithing as defined by Wierwille is: "God's Basic Law of Prosperity" "God's Law of Supply" "The Law of Systematic Giving" "God's Absolute Minimum Law of Financial Liberty, Prosperity and Abundance" "Our Minimum Financial Insurance, Health and Accident Insurance" "The Proportionate Giving Principle" "The Law of the Renewed Mind Financially"

Refiner I've also wondered about this as well. But assuming the millenial kingdom and paradise thereafter will be perfect justice and peace, I don't see how any of that will matter much. I would think all of us would be satisfied just to be there.

From what I've heard, there was a group of people in the corps who practiced these things secretly. It had to be secret, for everyone knows that adultery is sin, and if it got out that these rationalizations of adultery were being believed and promoted, the thing would have been exposed for what it was. That's why the Schoenheit paper (and Schoenheit) was shunned. What a mess.

yes, exactly... well not quite exactly but essentially the belief is the more active one is in way programs and things, the more rewards earned.

Refiner Another key belief not yet mentioned is that of salvation by grace. being converted=saved=born again Once you're born again, or saved, or converted (via Romans 10:9) you are heaven bound and no power from hell can stop you from going. You have eternal life and will be in God's kingdom with Jesus Christ forever.

Now there's someone more committed than I!Care for another corps pee story? I was seated in the library in September of 1975 during the first month of 6th corps training, and we were taking the PFAL class (already had taken it 10 times, so what). All at once, nature called. Right in the middle of a session with Wierwille teaching and no other sounds, in front of everyone, I got up and walked down the stairs to go to the bathroom. As I reach the bottom of the stairs, I hear footsteps frantically rushing down the stairs. I thought, oh god. Looking back, I saw Bo Reahard, the class instructor. He said, "don't allow the adversary to talk you out of hearing the Word." I said "yes, but I have to go to the bathroom." He said "ok".

I didn't leave TWI, they left me.

ckeer, your views are very reasonable and interesting, worthy of much consideration. I also think your statement is applicable to this thread and gives a decent perspective to the topic discussed. Thanks for sharing.

ckeer I see where you're coming from and can agree with you. From your observation, you said they "became" false prophets, and from their actions, their gift ministries became false. They are born again Christians, but because of their continued secretive evil actions, their gift ministries became false. I see this is possible. But I still have difficulty with verse 9: This says they will be punished. How? Can't mean eternal punishment, since they are born again, can it? What's your opinion ckeer?

I find it very hard to believe that that's TWI's current policy. I'm not doubting your experience, but is it possible that you had a prejudiced person somewhere in the mix? Did you happen to take this to a higher level? I would have. It just doesn't make sense if they want new recruits. How are people going to believe, if they can't hear about it but are interested in what TWI is teaching about Jesus and Christianity?

Did you ever hear of or witness an instance where someone was turned away because they were black or Jewish? Homosexuals were turned away in the 1990's, as we all know. Was anyone ever turned away from going wow or corps or any other program, because they were black or Jewish? If you invited a black or Jew even now, would they be turned away?

Tom I remember that. Weren't they from the American Bible Society or something like that? I think they had every book from Matthew to Revelation, and Acts was titled "the Way". I might still have them hanging around...And let's not forget that Panasonic cassette recorder called "Way", way back when ...

Tom We're getting into motive again. I don't know that he "deliberately" taught error to deliberately deceive. That's motive. Does the Roman Catholic Church deliberately teach that Mary is the Mediatrix because they deliberately want to deceive people and turn them away from Jesus alone as the Mediator? I take VP's erroneous teachings as what they are: error. I don't read any more into it, for I don't want to harbor a suspicious and accusative mind set that could be wrong.

Juan What substantive denial? I don't equate twi's teaching about and adherence to the church epistles as denying the Master. No way, shape or form does that viewpoint deny Jesus, for the epistles exalt and honor Jesus repeatedly.

Oenophile Quite the contrary, I am all for folks sharing their experiences and airing their stories. Please do. But there's more than that going on here, principally the excessive victim mentality propaganda laced with perpetual hatred of Victor Paul and the BOT. That's a lot more than just airing stories. No matter, Greasespot is a good place to be and I'm not a twi operative, haven't been involved with them for over 10 years. By the way, I can't derail a thread alone. "Don't Feed The Monster". If folks don't want derailments, don't respond to my posts. Thanks.

Juan I think Wierwille put it best when he said believing "Jesus Christ is not God" doesn't demote Jesus Christ, but rather, elevates God to his exalted supreme position. "He alone is God". Doesn't disparage Jesus in any way, shape or form.

Rascal How do you know I never met him? I first met him in 1973 at the end of my first PFAL class at a camp in NY. Spent some time with him a year later, at a CFS camp. Spent some time with him again in 1978, at an advanced class. Spent an entire month with him in 1984, on a motorcycle trip across the country and back. MO I also think his teaching on tithing in CSBP was false, but I don't label someone a false teacher based on some false teachings, what I do is weigh everything, true and false teachings. I think his teachings were more true than false. As I recall, he said in 1976 that the commies would take over if we didn't get the word over the usa. Don't know and wouldn't surmise anything else about it, but calling someone a false prophet based on that one example is weak. I never said everything he taught was true...

Hi Mo, I can't help interpret the relentless condemnation of Wierwille by some as anything but hatred of the man. Come on let's face it, some folks hate his guts. He's the evil monster, worse than Frankenstein or Adolph. Yeah, and most of those folks are the ones who never post. Good point, and I'd say that's right if Wierwille were still alive, doing evil. But Wierwille's dead. He doesn't continue to do wrong and doesn't refuse to admit wrong and doesn't continue to hurt others, because he's dead. If he was still alive, I'd understand and your point is well taken.

Nothing Oakspear. Just trying to inject a little humor. I forgot to wink. ;)-->

OK, so what are you complaining about then, huh?