oldiesman

No problemo, JT. :)-->

JustThinking, The name of Rev. Patricia Liberty was invoked as a reliable source in these matters. What does her viewpoint have to do with legal responsibility or legal liability? Why didn't you reprove the others for invoking her viewpoints, like you reprove me? Her views are irrelevant to your initial question. No matter, if her viewpoints are being considered in these matters, then all of her statements are fair game. :)-->

Rev. Patricia LibertyI disagree with the above statement. Since a minister is blameable for participating in inappropriate sexual behavior, a participant also is blameable for participation, most especially for initiating it. Rev. Liberty is supposed to speak for and be a representative of God. Ok, where does it say in the bible that folks who initiate inappropriate sexual contact should be given a free pass?

And I know Corps grads who were black and white. Even married couples who were Corps grads ... one Corps grad was black, their spouse, was white. Both Corps grads. If Wierwille were racist, would that have been allowed? Heck no! :)-->

Where's the evidence that he never got over it? I think he was being honest and sharing his feelings. I might feel the same way if it happened to me. This comment suggesting they were token blacks is extremely insulting to both Lonnell and Claudette, who both earned what they received. More German bashing. The fact that Wierwille had these books in the bookstore and advocated their reading doesn't mean he hated Jews ... I think he meant there were more ideas out there than what the mass media was feeding us, for years, and we had the right to know about it. Yeah, it does mean something when the U.S. yearly donates billions of dollars to Israel because the U.S. feels Israel is Gods Chosen People. Maybe you don't care about where your tax dollars go; I do.In my experiences, I've seen that true racists and anti-semites want nothing to do with blacks and Jews. On the contrary, Wierwille wanted to bring everybody into TWI, into the family and household of God ... so he didn't discriminate ... If Wierwille were racist and anti-semetic, he would have kept blacks and Jews out ... period. Add to that the fact that for years folks like us were involved ... I know if there were a hint of racism I would have picked up on it ... I'm not that stupid or ignorant of what is racism and how to tell it is being practiced. I think I would have complained about it if it were present to any extent, and I think you would have as well. :)-->

Have you called Way Headquarters yet? They'd probably have the information you need to know, even though you may not want to deal with them ... :)-->

I really don't get that from the Feb. 1987 letter by JAL & gang. For instance, where in that letter does it talk about VPW and LCM committing adultery? All we get are statements like: Ok, so what does that mean? To me, this is mega-vagueness, and nothing more than being Miserable Comforters, just like LCM said.Let's just talk about how the Trustees are blowing it, and let's reprove them with bible concepts from Wierwille; without getting specific.

Have a great weekend, one and all! :)-->

Waterbuffalo, If I am missing the mark, could you then please describe in detail what you mean exactly when you say that Anthem describes what wayworld was/is like. I don't want to misinterpret your meaning or put words in your mouth. :)-->

It sounds to me, generally, that Ayn Rand might be disparaging Christian thought and doctrine in her writings. I'm not saying she definitely is, or that her intent is to do so. I'm just looking at what she's writing, and trying to compare it with Christian thought and doctrine, and it looks to me like she could be disparaging Christianity. And the very fact that she's an atheist, might mean she looks on relinquishment of her own ego to a Higher Being, as being sheer folly. So, in essence, she may look at Christianity, as sheer folly.You seem to feel that relinquishment of your own ego is evil, that that was one of the evils of twi? From what I've seen, relinquishment of your own ego is not evil, in fact its at least a part of Christian thought and doctrine. I supplied some verses, there are many others. :)-->

This is one area were Rosalie differs from VPW. At least Dr. Wierwille and family put all his personal property in twi's name. But not Rosalie. Interesting! :)-->

Waterbuffalo, ahhhh ha ha haaaaaaa, you may ask Mike anything you please, I'm just trying to respond to your statements myself.What I'm saying is, you seem to be having a problem with folks being likeminded, having the same thoughts, goals, ideals, intentions, etc. well what do you think Jesus came to the world for? for us to be united in eating McDonalds hamburgers, eating at Wendy's, or Crispy Creme? Just trying to see where you're coming from. If it is an evil thing to relinquish your own ego, that it's good to be truly "independent", maybe you need to rethink what Christianity means and espouses? Just food for thought. As I said earlier, as a political system, I think Libertarianism is the best. But that political system does conflict with Christianity. Agreed?

Sounds a little like the Body of Christ, if you ask me. :)-->

Ayn RandAnthem Jesus ChristJohn 17:11 Waterbuffalo, and your problem is what, exactly? :)-->

def59, could you please be more specific. what exactly did Raf say? I could be wrong, but I don't have a problem with Jesus making some mistakes. After all, he was a human being. TWI also taught that he got sick. Couple of things that sets Jesus apart from all other men is that (1) he was born of the virgin Mary (the virgin conception) and (2) he always did the will of the Father. In my mind, always doing God's will, always being "in fellowship" with God, doesn't mean you are immune from making some mistakes. But what kind of mistakes did they say he made? some food for thought: what you and I might view as mistaken, might not be a mistake at all, just an action from God's viewpoint. Remember we don't always see things like God does. :)-->

Steve Lortz, I just emailed a PDF file of the document to Pawtucket, asking if he could post it. If you want it as well, send me your email address, through PT. :)-->

Steve Lortz,dmiller was kind enough to send this to me recently. I read through it, and nowhere does it say anything about a call for the trustees to engage their followers in an open discussion. The paper wreeks of spiritual halitosis. Syrupy spiritual self serving gobbledygook. After reading it, I'm glad the Trustees fired their butts. Here's a quote from page 35: The pages immediately preceding this one talk about "mark and avoid." I guess what they did was, marked and avoided the Trustees! Also looks like John Pat and Tom expected to keep their positions, all the while "turning away" from the Trustees! hahahahNo wonder why their butts were fired.

:(--> one of the evil manifestations of Uncle Harry Day ...

Oenophile, I think this topic is an interesting discussion and worth exploring. I do see some of the differences between what Rand is saying, and what Christianity/twi/other religions are espousing. The fact that Rand is an atheist fits right in with it. Hey, I'm not knocking it. I like Libertarian stuff, and as a political system, I think it's the best. All I'm saying is, the idea that we are our own gods, and we are totally free to follow our own egos, so to speak, just doesn't seem to fit with the bible and Christianity. What about the third heavens and earth? have you thought about it at all? what's it going to be like as far as you having free will? in other words, if the Lord asks you to jump, will you be able to politely decline and go to McDonalds for a Big Mac? :)-->

Wow! Anyone want to sell their Sunday Nite Cassettes? CLICK HERE :)-->

Oakspear, In God's Kingdom, he expects us to give, doesn't he? I don't see where we are true free agents, doing what our own egos feel like doing, and that way being acceptable with God. I think Rands views, and Libertarianism in general, desirable as they may be, are not compatible with true Christianity, for Christians are compelled to do good and obey God's Laws, not to feed to the dictates of their own egos. And in the Third Heaven and Earth, will things be any different? You think you'll be free? Free to do what you will? You remember the word slavery is not a bad word in the bible, for good reason. :)-->

Elmer Gantry :)-->

I like Burt Lancaster. :)-->

Rand writes: But the question is, is that the way God wants or desires us to live? Being free from our brothers? Being free from everything else, except our own egos to relish and worship?

To me, Howard Allen's statement only reinforces the idea that the sales were to advance the religion, or ministry coffers, etc. Yes, it's about profit, but for the purpose of moving the religion. On the other hand, if he wrote a book and selling it in the bookstore and all the profit went in his own pocket, that would probably be an example of having a profit motive other than for the advancement of the religion. :)-->