oldiesman

My take on this is when JAL first started his own group, he was much more personally and emotionally disturbed about events in twi and his own removal/departure, thus the unrelenting negatives about Victor Paul Wierwille at that time. Fast forward a few years, and now he sees that lots of what was taught in twi was accurate, obviously by their own teachings in CES, and therefore, has a more respectable view than before, at least about some of the doctrines taught. I get some things from CES; tapes and such. I too am leary of following them ... but keeping in contact doesn't hurt if you still believe in some of the goodies we were taught in twi. They don't engage in financial pressure, and do teach and preach that adultery and fornication are ungodly, something that twi still hasn't done adequately. Their newsletter is free of charge. :)-->

Excellent perspective. Thanks John. :)-->

Me too. :)-->

With a name like Matthew J. Slick, is it that surprising that his information is erroneous? :)-->

Here's another book that was sold by the TWI-1 bookstore once upon a time: The Hoax of the Twentieth Century In Chapter 1 of this book, by A.R. Butz, he writes a short paragraph about the Myth of the Six Million, that I thought was interesting:

The Myth of the Six Million Online PDF

Wierwille on CD Rom "Take Dr. Wierwille to the beach with you" :)-->

Just a guess, it may have something to do with Donna Martindale still being there. She's still there, still uses the "Martindale" name, still probably has regular contacts with him, and still wields power, authority and influence. If she ever broke ties with Martindale and changed her name back to Lombardi, and after that they're still selling Martindale's stuff, then I'd really wonder what's what.

And the problem is? I don't see anything in there about not dating an unbeliever or someone not affiliated with twi. By the way, I don't know if it's true anymore today, but when I was involved with the Roman Catholic church, it was considered a great sin and a wicked act for a Roman Catholic to marry a Protestant. So this is really nothing new.

Broad blanket statements like this throw me off. First, you might want to try convincing folks that twi-1 was a scam to begin with. If that question is settled in the affirmative, then question whether Uncle Harry was in on "the scam."Something I would consider "scam-like" is Dr's definitions and supposed results of tithing. But that wasn't the whole ministry.

I second Grizzy's comments; go date and have a good time. Funny, the person you're dating sounds less fanatical than I was; I would have tried to get you involved right away. Have fun. :)-->

I believe we are saved from eternal death, which is eternal non-existence. I don't believe in eternal punishment, or eternal pain. Jesus, the second Adam, made it available for those who believe to enter into the eternal Kingdom of God, which is what God wanted in the first place before Lucifer put a fly in the ointment. What I think we don't know yet is, in the new heavens and earth, in our new bodies, will folks have freedom of will? The way I see it, it can't be the same free will as we have now, or Lucifer had/has, otherwise you're going to have the same thing happening all over again. But I believe God is Just and Good and will right the wrongs -- and He has all eternity to do it, even though we don't have all the answers now. For now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face ...

Another $$$ set of books. 8 Wierwille books

Ted the CD was super. Lots of Oldies but Goldies. Thanks so much. :)-->

I thought the Mountaintop Checkbook was a good idea. It was a way for me to see that God's Promises were presently available, if I believed. Everything was taken from scripture, and mostly the promises in the gospels and lots of the words of Jesus himself.

I just accepted he was right, without studying and verifying it. It all made so much sense, and I wasn't into research. Plus, the first few years, I greatly enjoyed the fellowship more than anything else, and left the researching and studying to others. I will say this: Victor Paul repeatedly said that we should study the word for ourselves, to make it our own. In other words, don't just take his word for it; do your own research. Those who did do their own research, and then found flaws with Wierwilles, either held the flaws in abeyance (as was correctly stated previously), or left, because they probably weren't given answers to their questions that were acceptable enough for them to live with. For those who stayed, it's obvious to me that there were other reasons why they hung around besides possible faulty research. For me, the fellowship was quite excellent in the early years. :)-->

Rascal, I know you know how to read, so please reread my statement. I was speaking of myself, what I experienced. You, on the other hand, said: I don't know, but do you consider yourself expert enough to speak for MOST men in twi, how they were supposed to be taught and employ methods that women were 2nd class? Let's make a deal. You speak for yourself, and I speak for myself. But when you get into making blanket statements about what most men supposedly believed and employed, you get into making statements that don't necessarily apply to most or everybodies experiences or practices. And I know you don't want to do that, because you've corrected me dozens of times for doing that same thing. :)-->

I don't relate to thinking or being taught that women were 2nd class there. Being single in twi, I had much admiration and respect for all women, both married and single. Lots of single women were my coordinators, and very respected. As I recall, married women were expected to submit to their husbands. Is that biblical? Yes, it is. So I understand the connection if one's a bible believing christian who wants to do what the book says. And that was supposed to be what twi was all about, the word, the word, and nothing but the word. right?

Because committing adultery and lying about it is not as bad in twi-2,3 world as turning your back on God and the household, and/or getting marked and avoided. Another possible reason why they haven't ditched his teachings is, because they have nothing better to replace them with right now. It's the best that's avaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil able.

It's that India paper ... it sticks together and just doesn't flush well. :)-->

Not all, but I think it's safe to say, a sizable portion. :)-->

Have you had a colonoscopy? It is recommended for all folks over 50, and doesn't hurt for anyone to get one in their 40's if they wish. :)-->

George, if you're looking to get rid of one ... :)-->

Jason P, you said: I believe that is a reasonable way to look at it. But you also said: Question: why lean towards the latter? why automatically assume Victor Paul was deliberately and knowingly perpetuating a scam? :)-->

Ha. I always wanted one of those. I think that'd do well if you give a nice pic and detailed description on what event it's celebrating and how you got it, how much of a historical piece it is in twi world, etc. Did you get it directly from VP, like did he hand it to you? I wasn't there but that might have some significance. Gifts from VP may do better than standard items. :)-->