oldiesman

I think all that depends on the mind set and intent of the person making the decision, whether good or evil. Both good and evil were manifest in twi, therefore both good and evil applies. I think God and Jesus, who have perfect understanding, are the ultimate Judges of these matters, matters of the intent of the heart and soul of a man.

As did TWI .... this is a good observation. When I was involved, folks had a choice to stay only at the twig level, go to twig once a week, enjoy it, and live your life. Then there were folks who went further, went out WOW and Corps, presumably because of greater service to Christ. Those issues come back now to bite some because some see that as stealing from our lives, what otherwise would have been better. Don't know, I think each person has to answer that for themselves. But I do think God has honored / will honor our good works in the Lord.

So if twi taught all these goodies in 1978, how can anyone possibly surmise that twi really meant (with all the venom of an evil snake) that Christ is absent from our lives? CES gets one demerit for engaging in sneaky false finger-pointing against twi-1.

Fence: Funny you should mention this, I've sometimes wondered the same thing about other posters as well. Detached from reality? I don't think so. Hey, just because some folks don't think about and speak about evil works of twi continually, doesn't mean they're detached.Regards my wealth, nah, I'm not all that wealthy, but do have some spare time on my hands. Never though, on evenings and weekends! :)-->

I disagree: you've made false accusations, assumptions, and false conclusions... Here's one: "I have no respect for the opinion of one who`s only problem with twi is that it hit him in the pocket book." That is being dishonest. When did I ever make that comment. You're false accusing again. You are a false accuser. Who is the source of these accusations? What attacks have I made on the innocent? You are a false accuser. Who is the source of these railing false accusations? If folks in twi and offshoots think that the trinitarians are engaging in idolatry, I think they're wrong. On the other side of the coin, if trinitarians think that non-trinitarians are not christians, they are equally wrong. You know something, I never heard of VPW accusing trinitarians of not being saved, of not being Christian; but I have heard accusations of the reverse. But as for my own opinion, I don't think trinitarians are bad at all, in fact I just had a very nice conversation with a woman who's part of the Assemblies of God church, she's a very fine woman and she invited me to her church. I only wonder what will happen when I disclose I don't believe in the trinity ...

Garth, I really beg to differ with you. To most ex way folks, I think Wierwille's reputation is mixed. A doer of both good and evil. His organization is still around, and can make a comeback. The offshoots are still around. These groups, to the extent that they teach God's word, are doing a worthwhile service. What are you doing, other than criticizing and complaining and condemning how dead these folks are? What makes you so lively and bright, and someone to be listened to?

Garth: I don't think so Garth. You are engaging in dishonesty and lying when you falsely accuse me of whitewashing. Just because I want to express my opinions about some of the good that Wierwille accomplished, you call it whitewashing. Too bad if you don't like what I experienced and it nauseates you. But I think it's you, and folks like you who, knowing full well, decide to sweep under the rug Wierwille's good works. He was a complex man, certainly a doer of both good and evil works. Focusing on the evil only, and making a conclusion that he was nothing more than a man of the flesh, and that's it, is being dishonest and corrupt. You can't erase his accomplishments as much as you like to do. His legacy is tarnished because of his sins ... but I'm not going to renounce that he taught me the bible. And you can't stand that he taught God's word and folks appreciated it, and still do? The man is dead, and still he's doing more thru his books even today then you're doing, condemning and complaining about his shortcomings and not much else.

Rascal: The bible speaks of putting away lying, have you tried that verse when you finish reading Galatians? I never label Wierwille anything other than what he did, both good and bad. I never suggested he be exonerated for his sins. But it is YOU who don't care to confirm the facts that he did some good, taught the bible, and then your corrupted mind continues on with the garbage and labels folks like me, who appreciate the good that he did, as evil, or misrepresenting what happened. I'm not misrepresenting anything. Rather, it is you who has surmised evil, and continue to speak evil of good.This is why you are no authority on Galatians, because you do those same things he says not to do. The pot calling the kettle black. Wierwille was a man born again of God's spirit, that's what I believe. If all you do is focus on his sinful nature, your mind is corrupt and you engage in corrupt communication and evil surmisings, and that's all you're about if that's what you choose to do.

Lindy: Cheap shot, especially since this is the first I've posted on this thread.Oops correction, this is the first I've posted since Waysurvivor came on board ...

yada yada yada. But what I don't understand is, since you know so much about this topic, why don't YOU do what it says? It talks about putting away wrath, strife, hatred, bitterness, evil speakings....then it says to put on love, peace, gentleness, goodness, meekness, all fruit of the spirit.Ya see, you're all about Wierwille hatred and bashing and your superior knowledge of his shortcomings. Both barrels blazing, unrelenting, in-your-face wrath. But I don't really need or want to be lectured by folks like you who give lip service to bible verses you like, but don't really act accordingly on those you think don't apply to you. You're so busy pointing fingers, but try examining your posts for a change. Yes, Wierwille exhibited qualities a man of the flesh; and you are a woman of the spirit? I can't glean that from your unrelenting hatred and judgments.

It's difficult for me to decide, because I think we all have some of those attributes at one time or another. Nobody's perfect. All of us have some of those godly spirit attributes at one time or another, as well. Being a PFAL grad for me, did a whole lot of good. :)-->

Pedophile priests come to mind, that may refute the above statement ...

Song: Your analogy doesn't relate to the discussion. I think Oakspear is talking about folks who already have been taught PFAL and Wierwilliasms. The AP is another matter entirely ... :)-->

Steve!, lol, when did I ever say that my belief is "the way that it must be done"? I am just communicating my opinion ... :)-->

Waterbuffalo, I prefer to state that I received both truth and error. Sifting through and being able to discern truth from error is definitely possible, especially when no longer in the twi environment. The truth part one may keep with no fear, because it is truth, and will make you free. The error part one may discard, because it will hurt you."Eat the fish, and spit out the bones." If some folks don't care to admit that we were taught truth in twi, go ahead, believe what you will. I'm not going to change you minds. :)-->

August 31, 2004: Cleveland 22, Yankees 0 Worst defeat for the Yanks in their history ... :(-->

Then I suppose you were one of those who took the class, didn't get anything from it, left, and never returned? That happened to a few folks who I knew. But I was glad they at least had an opportunity to hear God's word. ... :)-->

Waterbuffalo: I'm not in CES; but do order tapes from them from time to time, and get their free newsletter. Never attended one of their meetings. I mentioned about JAL only because he originated the quote "eat the fish, and spit out the bones". I thought it was a pretty decent statement and the author should be mentioned. :)-->

One way I can think of right off the bat if they're different would be in the abs category, and if there is no compulsion. For example, when going to twig in the '70's, I never experienced a directive/mandate by the tc or leadership to tithe or abs; one may give cash if one desired as well. If one desired not to give, one was still allowed to attend twig, and keep attending, without giving any money. Then I hear in the '90's, all that changed, and they required you to at least tithe, and wanted you to give a check, so they could keep track. Is all that changed now? If I wanted, could I go to twig as often as I like and not be bothered if I don't feel like sending money to hq? :)-->

Steve, if you want to start over, and throw the baby out with the bathwater, go ahead. I prefer to eat the fish, and spit out the bones, like JAL does. There's some quality fish meat in PFAL. (not piffle)! :)-->

What integrated system? All one can you do is take each principle Wierwille discussed in PFAL, study that principle for yourself, check it out for yourself against what you now believe the bible says, and believe accordingly. What gangrene? Wierwille taught truth. There is no gangrene in truth. ( I will concede that the errors he taught are gangrene and must be cut out. ) :)-->

Catcup: Perhaps you misunderstood, I didn't say all expounded scripture is God Breathed, I said all scripture is God Breathed. But, I do believe that in various teachings and segments, Wierwille expounded scripture, which is God Breathed. Therefore, since all scripture is God Breathed, then what Wierwille expounded, in certain segments, is God Breathed. Same level of truth. It's the spoken word.I don't think Mike is worshipping Wierwille; just believing what he wrote in PFAL is God Breathed. I think he goes too far, but I think it's like what I suggested before, that believing the words of Paul, or Luke, or John, or Malachi, doesn't mean one is automatically worshipping those men, or engaging in idolatry. Same holds true for believing PFAL is God Breathed. It's a belief. If Mike is truly engaging in idolatry, what other gods are Mike worshipping? Does believing that Ephesians is God Breathed, mean one is worshipping Paul? I challenge the idolatry accusation; Mike may be dead wrong ... but being dead wrong doesn't necessarily equate into worshipping other gods. On throwing everything out, yeah, you can do what a juror's options are, and impeach everything Wierwille says because of his plagiarism and sins, disbelieve everything he says and start over. That's your prerogative, and it appears some have already done that. But for those who do not choose that specific course of getting rid of everything and starting over, doesn't mean they've lost all their marbles, among other things. :)-->

Not the way Mike does; but I do believe those principles/teachings that are accurate according to scripture are God Breathed, because they are expounding scripture, which is God Breathed. I think Mike believes that PFAL is like the Mormon's bible, like another testament of Jesus Christ. I don't quite go that far ... But, even if Mike believes that, I think it doesn't mean he automatically is engaging in idolatry; no more so than the Mormons automatically engage in idolatry for what they believe. Would you agree? :)-->

Steve!,If Mike engages in idolatry because he believes the words of Wierwille, a la PFAL, are the words of God, then wouldn't idolatry also be believing that the words of Paul are the words of God? of Jude? of Malachi? of John? etc. In other words, why does he have to be worshipping other gods to believe VPW received revelation and wrote it down? And you're the one who gives praise to Wierwilles name all the time; albeit mockingly; but I haven't heard Mike do or say or suggest anything like that. :)-->

I haven't the foggiest idea why sex is bad between consenting, single adults, other than God doesn't think it's a good idea. :)-->