oldiesman

He led thousands to the Lord Jesus Christ, sins and all. Wow! Rascal, you don't (or refuse to) see what good he actually did. Or, you just simply dismiss it, don't give it any consideration at all, but instead focus entirely on his evil works. I have a different perspective than you... There's enough goodies in PFAL, and were enough goodies in twi-1, for me to say unequivocally that I'm glad VPW chose Christianity as a vocation. ... :)-->

Experiences vary. Your perspective is different from mine. What I mean by God being the ultimate Judge is He knows all, sees all, and has perfect perspective, whereas we don't. Doesn't mean you can't make a judgment, just don't expect me to swallow everything you think is true, and vice versa. We each have our own opinions. :)-->

Not necessarily. What you call "VPW apologetics" may also be defined as a whole range of perspectives differing from yours. Experiences vary. God is the ultimate Judge. :)-->

Not that I have seen, but then again, I don't know everything about the offshoots. I think the "fear is believing in reverse" part of PFAL has been abandoned as error. On the other hand, putting the emphasis on believing in God's power, and believing the promises of God and that He will bring things to pass, not by the power of man or the power of the human mind, but by His Word and Promises, is that part of PFAL that is being continued. Perhaps others have experienced differently but that's what I have seen so far. :)-->

Coolwaters, Not sure about exactly what you mean concerning "service to God", but here's a quote from Wayne Clapp of CFF: do you concur with this opinion? It looks like a sound declaration of faith in God and the bible. To me, one way we can serve and honor God is by declaring our faith, and acting accordingly, as mentioned in the previous quote. What do you think?

Each person has their own perspective of who they think VPW was and wasn't, and what they thought twi was and was not. Experiences vary. God is the ultimate Judge. :)-->

Not sure yet where you're coming from. The way I see it, twi and their spinoffs claim to be biblical ministries, and as such, must (or try to) adhere to biblical concepts. Believing=receiving is a biblical concept. You said: Ok, but how do you explain then all those verses about believing, and from Jesus himself? Either believing is a requirement, or it isn't. If God says we could automatically receive something without believing, fine (is that what you're saying about the sun standing still? It didn't matter what the guy believed?) But there are some things God requires believing for, for why then is it mentioned that believing is necessary?

Steve, do you have this paper? I've been wanting to read it for some time, hopefully you have it or know somebody that does? :)-->

I still can't say with certainty that believing=receiving is error, only because it appears to be clear, biblically. I guess I can say I don't fully understand the subject. But those bible verses, and the words of Jesus himself, are proof that believing=receiving might not be as erroneous as some claim. Unless there's some other hidden meaning somewhere I have to assume that those verses are true or at least a possibility of being true, divergent experiences notwithstanding. :)-->

To the extent that an offshoot adheres to the legitimate goodies of twi, while simultaneously discarding the errors of twi, I think that offshoot has to be involved in promoting some godliness in peoples lives. I believe twi wasn't all bad, and did promote godliness in various areas; and it looks like there's folks around who want to keep the godly principles moving and growing. Godspeed to them. :)-->

Wordwolf, Your sins may not be as bad as vp's, but i bet you wouldn't be that excited about a website dedicated to unrelenting exposure of every unflattering and sinful area of your life, would you? And if that would occur, would that be ok, for any imperfect man to be a judge of another inperfect man's sins, 24/7? Maybe you wouldn't object to that, after all, wrongdoing is wrong, isn't it? So let's shout it from the rooftops. I think that might be a point that What The Hay was trying to make. God is the ultimate Judge, not man; even if one thinks they know so much about another man's sinful life. :)-->

Steve Lortz, Can you share what a typical day at Momentus was like, if you remember? (redeemed time analysis of momentus? :)-->) We seem to be getting mixed reports here and since your experience wasn't as good as the others perhaps you can give us specific accounts leading to your disdain about the training ...

I think what Steve says is pretty common, so why dump on CES? Don't you think it's pretty much human nature for leaders to stick with certain principles and tend to be loyal to those principles? I think what Steve is saying is pretty much correct. But, why dump on John Lynn because he's not prone to change from his positions? I don't see or know of any bastions of objectivity, do you? Have a great weekend! :)-->

Steve, you keep on harping on this but may I suggest this again: virtually all religions, and all peoples, act like they know it all (or know what's correct) and are not prone to change (except Lindyhopper) ;)--> Try it for yourself. Go talk to leaders of an organization, a group with definite principles, teachings, edicts, etc., and see if they change when confronted with opposing/divergent information. Good luck! It's that way all over, bro. Just because folks may believe something different than you or I, and will not (or are not inclined easily to) move from that position, doesn't make their heart deceitful and wicked.

But isn't this true of virtually all religions?And virtually everyone? Everyone is right in their own eyes ...

dmiller, I get the same impression and have had the same experience. I haven't seen or heard anything about Momentus while dealing with CES. I think we're talking about some old stuff here, not representative of the present happenings over at CES. :)-->

Unless there's ample evidence otherwise, I'd probably today put twi at #2. I'd also put the Roman Catholics there as well. I might have put these groups at 3-4 during past years with the sex scandals ... but due to the bad publicity, they may have gotten better as of late. :)-->

Excellent! Thanks John! :)-->

Here's another letter written by John Lynn to the Way Believers, dated March 30, 1988. March 30, 1988 Letter Does anyone happen to have, or know anyone that has, that 37-page document he talks about? I'd love to read it if it's still available. :)-->

Socks, I fully agree. So what's the answer? Are they now formally teaching that adultery is wrong, or not? Inquiring minds want to know. :)-->

Oh me too! He was yet another reason why my time in twi-1 was decent. I went right back to his twig after the wow year ended. :)-->

I know John Lynn from his Limb Coordinator days in New York. On my second WOW year (1979-80), I was sent to Little Rock, AR. Early on, I was having big big doubts about it. In fact, the second week there, I was contemplating leaving. I called my TC back in New York, and he consoled me, and after the discussion he said it was ok with him if I returned to NY and everything will be ok. I called John Lynn, and told him my misgivings about staying in AR. "I spoke with my TC and will probably be coming back to NY". "What?" John said... "I don't want you back here!"... Then John asked "Who's your twig coordinator?" I said "well, I don't want to tell you because then he'll get in trouble" :D--> I'm so glad I didn't tell him. ... But John Lynn helped me see that it was wrong to leave the field after I had made the commitment, so I'm glad for the tough love. I thought he was a funny guy but also had a lot of love mixed in. :)-->

So then according to this new class, adultery is wrong?

I'm not up on everything about Islam, but I think the difference with Christianity and Islam (and all other religions) is, we have Jesus Christ, who laid down his life as payment for the sins of the world. The same Jesus was crucified, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven. To my knowledge, no other existing religion compares with the sacrifice of Christ, which makes the new birth possible. All other religions, to my knowledge, are based on your own personal good works to attain salvation, if it's available at all. Christianity is based on the finished work of Christ, and the grace of God. In sum ... with Christianity, Christ is your saviour. With other religions, you are your own saviour. :)-->

Whether or not one has or hasn't taken Momentus is irrelevant; the fact is, one doesn't have to engage in victim mentality if one doesn't wish to. :)-->