oldiesman

It doesn't make sense to me, could you elaborate further.Saying CES is a TWI clone is not enough to prove it's an evil outfit. Because lots of folks still believe that TWI had godly things about it. If the clones copy or imitate the godly things, and abandon the ungodly things, how can you call it evil? I don't see where they are going wrong. In fact, I think they may be an improvement. I would think this is true for now, but let's say they remain for years and years, then that won't be the case. People of whatever background may choose whatever level of involvement that suits them. I get their free newsletters and sometimes, buy some tapes. That's it. No strain, strife or struggle. :)-->

def59, that thought ran through my mind, but it seemed to me they never taught annihilation decisively enough. At least I never heard a decisive teaching by VP on it. I was out by 1991. :)-->

As I recall, TWI taught all along that those who aren't in the book of life in the end will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. That's it. I don't think they elaborated further, or if they did, not really that decisively. That's the impression I got, but really didn't examine it deeply. So the question remains, what happens in the lake of fire? I believe, total annihilation, as opposed to eternal pain and suffering. There's an excellent book on the topic of annihilation called The Fire That Consumes :)-->

Good point dmiller, thanks. :)-->

Satori Of course I'm just rendering an opinion, but that's what I've seen through life's experience, and just plain old common sense. Folks tend to think they are right, especially Christian folks. Nothing wrong with that. Not from what I've seen. But you are free to disagree if you wish. I thought the baby in the nursery comment you made was exactly that. Why get on their case if they think you would be better off coming to their baby? Isn't that what all religions think, that they're on the right track? At least doctrinally, I see this clearly. I think you are being presumptuous and saying things we don't know yet and haven't yet been proven. CES (John Lynn) has stated they wish to eat the fish, and spit out the bones. What does that mean? I think it means they wish to keep the goodies of TWI, and abandon the errors. We can hold them to that standard. I think they've done a good job, so far, but they're not perfect, we know that too. But I just don't see them repeating the same mistakes as twi-2. If they have, you are free to point them out and argue your point. It's a great statement, isn't it? Originally made by an intelligent GS poster. I'd like to leave it alone and don't want to change or revise it; it really speaks for itself, and needs no interpretation or defense from me. You are free to disagree if you wish. :)-->

I still don't see the point in getting on CES's case, or condemning them, cause they think they're right. All religions think they're right. ... :)-->

Rosalie's response to John: I wonder what would have happened had John & Hope gone to headquarters? Probably the same result. But personally, I think I would have taken Rosalie up on her offer, if for no other reason than to communicate, personally, my discontent and suggestions. I think I would have played their game, one more time ... :)-->

Rottiegirl,Another derail, but over the weekend I went to a friend's house and saw the cutest Rottweiler; had to squeeze his cheeks ;)--> So has John Lynn posted anywhere yet?

EX Ex, to answer your question, John Schoenheit emailed me the following information years ago, and I communicated this information on Waydale, under my name at that time "ppolizotto". This info. was copied onto Greasespot and noted HERE go all the way to the bottom and it's there as well. :)-->

Steve, this is probably one reason why I like them. They acknowledge that TWI was a genuine ministry at one time. They take the goodies from twi, and drop the errors. (or at least have tried, or made some attempts, at some points.) It appears to be an improvement to me, at least an improvement of what exists in twi today. Ok, so its probable they aren't correct on some doctrines. And who among us is 100% correct on all the doctrines? Eat the goodies, and spit out the bones. Have a nice weekend, one and all! :)-->

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

They advance a product and they are entitled to receive fruit from their labors of producing and promoting that product.Those of us who can use and get some benefit or enjoyment or satisfaction from the products people produce, will pay for it. Such is life. :)-->

How many different Christian denominations are there in the U.S., and how many of them may be accused of engaging in this type of activity, if one wishes to engage in that type of accusation? Most, if not all, I presume. I prefer to look on CES' doctrinal teachings as beliefs that you or I may or may not concur with; rather than they must have some sinister evil selfish motive behind it ... :)-->

MJ412, I didn't quite understand this statement. Are you referring to the fact that they continue to commit adultery, or the fact that they don't preach against fornication? Both? Neither?

What i've surmised about Victor Paul, I will invoke here as well: we don't see everything clearly enough, and know everything big enough to know whether these folks' motives are self righteous and pompous, thus being frauds.Maybe you're confusing boldness, conviction and assuredness with self righteousness and pompous stubbornness? At any rate, God is the ultimate searcher of hearts ... and I am glad they preach about Jesus Christ and Him crucified ... :)-->

Thanks Steve. Thanks dmiller! I just emailed you my name and address. Thanks so much. :)-->

Steve, your "Drawing Swords" article is very very good. Thanks. :)-->

or else maybe it's the coffee and cookies? :)-->

Absolutely nothing. I refuse to be a continual victim, blaming twi for problems, or lost opportunities. As long as I'm still breathing, I can still do things and enjoy accomplishments. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" is still the truth for today! :)-->

Well it does seem a bit less than some of those past reports of deprogrammings costing $10,000 or so. Thanks for the compliment Steve. I know some folks would love it if I just shut up, but it's nice to hear others appreciate my contributions. :)-->

Just a guess, John 10:10 maybe? Here's an autographed copy! Wonder if anything from this book has been plagiarized? Maybe I'll get one. :)-->

Steve, thanks for trying to find that paper for me. I understand it's 37 pages or something? I haven't seen it on any of the websites, but somebody's gotta have a copy. :)-->

Am I on track in saying that Momentus sounds like an inexpensive way to get deprogrammed?

They are addicted to The Faith ... :)-->

You're saying that ol VPW used God as bait. But I thought God is sovereign? How can HE, God, allow Himself to be used as bait by little ol VP? You say God worked "in spite of" VP, whatever that means. God wasn't working "with" VP? Problem is, it seems that all you see is evil motives from VP. Black heart, wolfs in sheeps clothing, a child of the devil. I'm truly glad I have a different perspective than you do ...