oldiesman

Shelly, actually I think I'm the opposite of you. When I was in twi, I would have probably let it slip, thinking positives and loving thoughts, thinking about how I will receive back for giving. Today, I'd be running after them in a rage, demanding my money back! and on the way to my vehicle, I'd yell at the beggars asking for money outside the supermarket doors.

Uncle H, some of us have been asking this question for years. I think the answer is, she's been running TWI for a decade with her good friend, Rosalie, and she's got a lot of power and authority in there, too much for any faction to rebel. If twi were fair and equitable, she should have been given the same sentence as so many corps brothers and sisters of ours who had to leave with their spouse. But no, she's special, that also might be why the rules have changed, of late. Now, they make arbitrary decisions; whatever they feel like doing, they do. -->

I never denied twi has/had any errors. where did you get that from? -->

here are a few:Salvation by grace, not of works speaking in tongues the dead are still dead, awaiting the return the bible is much more understandable and readable the fact that these truths are taught elsewhere is irrelevant. I learned them in twi ... so that counts for something. and these things weren't all that readily available and rampant where I was back in 1973 ... :)-->

I think they died off when the Word got over the World. :P--> ;)-->

Steve Lortz, I think folks have to decide for themselves whether CES is being dishonest, or being dishonest enough to turn away from. I haven't seen or heard anything that persuades me to turn away from them or mark and avoid them. I think their books are worth reading; their tapes are worth hearing. You don't have to agree with everything they preach ... that's a given. Why not let people believe what they want to and stop being so anal retentive about it? :)-->

Satori, I was attempting to respond to something Danny said, and the way I saw it, that he was complaining about CES not being objective. The point was if your view and beliefs are so much better, start your own group and put some hard work into it, if you think what you belief is that much better. Just food for thought. This argument means little as I see it. If the point you are making is that CES is fudging their claims about themselves, ok, I see your point, but it's a little anal retentive. So what? The way I see it, hardly anyone in the field of religion and doctrine is all that objective to the point of changing their views that quickly. Are you really surprised that CES is holding fast what they believe is truth we learned from TWI? I'm very glad they are holding fast some teachings. :)-->

Sure, but I think most of it was repetitive. Not that hearing that God loves you several times a week is a bad thing. But I went to fellowship not only to hear some of the word but also to enjoy the fellowship with people. If you determine that the fellowship with people isn't worth it, then yeah, you might as well stay home and don't waste your time and listen to it on tape when you feel like it.

Yes. The way I see it, they apply the totality of evidence and research they've already engaged in, and formed beliefs that they choose are satisfactory and biblical. So what's the problem? They are human and can make mistakes as well. You can go on and on about "already determined beforehand" beliefs, and what they think are "right" doctrines. The fact remains the same. Are they not entitled to believe, hold fast, and communicate what they think is "right"? You seem to be making the case that they are unobjective and don't care to hear other viewpoints. Welcome to Religion in the USA, 2004. Welcome to dealing with human beings, who have formed beliefs. You are also free to start your own biblical research group, if you will, if you think you have the more accurate version. nothing wrong with that. but bear in mind it isn't just the doctrine they espouse but also the effort and will and commitment it takes to communicate it to others. That takes dedication and hard work. :)-->

The way I see it it's very simple, they've come to realize that certain teachings from twi are true, that is what they believe, and they are holding to those beliefs. Those teachings that they don't believe, they disposed of. Why ask or expect them to change? They believe what they believe. That's their menu. If you don't like their menu, you are free to go to another restaurant. :)-->

Some have done this, but I think JAL and CES and others don't want to stray from the teachings they espouse, because they believe them to be the truth. Why hold CES and JAL to a higher standard and burden to change their beliefs, than all the other religions out there? Those who want CES and JAL to change -- if it's so simple, why don't YOU change YOUR minds? For instance ... Would you walk into a baptist church and ask them to cancel water baptism? or at least explore the possibility that they may be wrong? Would you walk into a Roman Catholic church and ask them to stop believing that Mary is the mother of God? or the Mediatrix? Or at least research the possibility that they might be wrong? good luck ... :)-->

Lindy, in some cases, some of those things may apply. I can't say they don't, can you? If folks are there and say they are satisfied and happy with it, geeze, that's their experience and testimony. It's their life. :)-->

Satori, yes, this was my experience for the most part in twi-1. I didn't experience the negatives you refer to. I'm not saying it was all just love, you're putting that in my mouth. I also think there's a difference between twi of the 70's and 80's and twi of the 90's. Perhaps you don't agree but folks have seen and experienced the difference. :)-->

Cherished Child, On one of the CES tape series (I believe its the series on the book of Revelation), John Schoenheit says the reason why they now use "rapture" instead of "gathering together" is that rapture is recognizable by the vast majority of Christians out there. He said when he'd use the words "gathering together" with non-twi folks, he'd get quizzical looks, so they went with the more common term. :)-->

George, your point is a fair one. I can't claim and don't want to presume what was in Wierwille's heart. We see the manifestation of both good and evil works. I can speculate, and say there was both good and evil in his heart, but nobody really knows everything for sure. So I'll defer by saying "I don't know", which is true.Steve Lortz said: God worked with people who believed those truths, yet God didn't work with Wierwille? He also believed those truths. I think Wierwille was involved with it as well. :)-->

George, what's the point in your statement. In life, and dealing with religions and other entities, one either agrees with the doctrine, or disagrees, and decides from there what one wants to do, either way. If one gets to the point that ones disagreement is so big that one can't live with it, one leaves. That's exactly what happened. George, it's pretty difficult for me to reason with you if you now believe everything about your experience with twi was one big obscene waste of time. We are coming from opposite extremes. :)-->

Steve Lortz, this is where we part company. How in the world do you know it wasn't Wierwille's heart and desire to have the word over the world? To desire that for God to be glorified, and man to be blessed? I find your presumptuousness to be astounding. :)-->

I tend to disagree. I remember VP saying many times "work the word for yourself", "make it your own". etc. If one didn't agree with the doctrines VP and others were teaching, or did happen to research its proposed accuracy and found a different conclusion, one was free to leave, at any time. Some did leave. Many never came to begin with. But before TWI, I can't say I heard hardly anything about God that made sense. And talk about being dissuaded from thinking, geeze, being raised Roman Catholic, I can attest to that!! :)-->

John Lynn said: Excellent statement that I concur with, I've been agreeing and voicing this viewpoint on Waydale and Greasespot for years. He also said: Excellent statement that I agree with! He also said: I guess I've mellowed out some, I no longer agree with this -- I used to, but now I feel that disassociation with the truths taught in TWI and CES doesn't automatically mean spiritual detriment. :)-->

ok fine, then I shant condemn TWI for speaking evil of other religions. It's their right under freedom of speech. :)-->

That's why this whole topic is so hard to comment definitively on: one person's cult is another person's godly religion, and so forth. I fall on the side of freedom of religion. If you don't like someone's brand, just go elsewhere. But you don't have to continuously condemn or put down those who remain of a certain viewpoint other than yours. We did that in twi, WHY DO IT NOW? What makes you so right, and others so wrong? and visa versa ... I say live and let live ... :)-->

I do recall hearing something like that, but it never made any sense to me because if you were being eternally tortured in that way, you wouldn't know it, cause you'd be unconscious. :)-->

Coolwaters, I stand corrected. I've been around Greasespot long enough to know that I can't speak for everyone. So the above statement is a guess for most, not a fact. I suppose there were folks that hung around a long time but not necessarily because it was the godly thing for they themselves to do. :)-->

This seems to be at the heart of the disagreement. But I fall on the side of TWI-1 being a genuine, godly ministry. It did have its ungodly elements, people still do sin, yes; but lots of folks got born again, lots of folks learned more about God that made some sense, and folks got blessed along the way. That's why we hung around so long. TWI-1's open agenda was the real godly thing. It's what some did in secret that was the most hurtful. :)-->

yeah they ask for money, but all of those groups ask for money. ... when I go to the supermarket to buy milk and cookies and twinkies, they got those beggars ready to pounce on you when you exit the door asking for money all the time. i'm sick of it especially when i go shopping. money money money, it's part of our lifestyle :)-->