oldiesman

Rascal, don't you ever consider that someone can make an error? I looked again at the quote and left out the first sentence of it. Sorry about that. But, now that I look at it, that's not what I said you said I said. I said: I didn't say "Craig and rosie and howard were the *best* that vp had available." I said I thought VPW did his best under the circumstances. So I don't want to add that in because it gives the wrong impression and misquotes what I actually said.However, if you want me to remove your name, I will do so. Let me know. :)-->

Excathedra, I believe confirmation by the Wierwille children of the allegations against their father would tend to lend more credibility to the allegations and help those of us who have a hard time believing that VPW was the very bad person that some portray him as. :)-->

Rascal, your quote is now exact with the exception of my added "(in twi)" so folks who don't know you were talking about twi, know exactly who you were talking about. Do you object to me adding those words? I will remove them if you insist, but don't know why you'd be afraid of letting folks know you're talking about twi. Since you're someone who wants to be totally upfront with folks and not keep them in the dark, I assume you'd agree, but let me know ...

Thanks Rascal. :)-->

Cherished Child, I don't know but somehow I have a different view. If it's ever possible, I'd still like to hear it from their lips or computers that they believe and confirm the allegations against their father. Maybe wishful thinking, but I'm not making any assumptions that they are silent because of VPW'S supposed "shameful legacy". I think it may be spinned every which way, until we hear it directly from them. :)-->

Rascal, if I use your entire quote instead of a paraphrase, is it ok if I use your name as well? If not, if you don't want me to use your name, then I have to paraphrase. It's a good statement and reminder of what kind of ministry we were in and who was there. Please let me know. :)-->

Linda Z, you made some excellent points and I can't argue with them. Thanks! :)-->

JustThinking, I think the reason why folks diverted the discussion was because your original premise went out with a whimper ... Total disagreement here. TWI-1 was good because folks were good, fellowship was good, learning and love was good. Spirituality was good. It's the many many folks that manifested fruit of the spirit that made up the organization and since folks were like that, that made twi good and spiritual. Thanks, Rascal. :)-->

It's nice to know twi wasn't all bad ... :)-->

That's why I asked for the exact letter. Interpretations of what was said, and the possible meaning thereof, varies alot; therefore I'd rather see it in the original. :)--> When I spoke with Don W. over the phone, he told me that many mistakes were made and communication from the BOT hadn't been up to par and they will improve. But my thinking wasn't corrupt and I didn't view them as devil worshippers. At the time, I viewed Craig's loyalty letter as a call to recommit ourselves for one common purpose of standing together to move the Word. Everybody knew the BOT had made mistakes, the question was, where to go from here. But you had Vince F. accusing the BOT of "worshipping other gods", without getting specific. I asked for specifics and never got any when I personally spoke with Vince that year; all I got was "you are CARNAL" because you follow men. Ok whatever. Vince F. was following Geer, and as we learn later, Geer didn't have any answers himself. So you had the blind leading the blind.Reason why I stayed with twi at that time because simply put, I didn't see any reasons to leave, nobody I was speaking with at that time gave me any appreciable reasons to leave, and I wasn't going to form my life on blind suspicions. I finally left for good in 1990/91, when nobody was around anymore, and I didn't feel like travelling 1 1/2 hours to the nearest meeting. :)-->

So then your belief is that VPW set up twi and various programs just to make money? In order to know that, you'd have to know exactly what was his motive and heart behind his decisions. But I'm not going to speculate and/or falsely accuse in those areas; God is the ultimate heart searcher and He knows the score and has complete wisdom and perfect understanding of folks' hearts and motives, not us. :)-->

Wordwolf, I don't know the letter you're referring to. Can I have a copy? My opinion about the pot calling the kettle black is for the people who were accusing us of being Carnal Thinkers -- chiefly, Vince F. There were others too. But I do believe that most folks (average believers) who left were following their local leadership without examining the other side of the coin and confronting the BOT with the apprehensions. For instance, how many folks actually called headquarters to make an attempt to speak to one of the trustees? Very few. I happen to know for a fact that Don Wierwille was taking phone calls from anyone who would listen, back in those days. I personally asked my twig coordinators to do that, call Don and voice their concerns to him, but they refused. I eventually left their twig, because they couldn't give a fig about what I thought.

What's the point of spewing insults? Instead of that, whether I accept your facts/logic or not, there are other folks viewing our posts who may accept what you're saying, and at least you'd be making some sense instead of writing insults. And I'd be more inclined to accept what you're writing if it makes logical sense. Try it. :)-->

Steve!, instead of spewing insults, why not try to defend JustThinking's points by facts and logic, if you can. (in this case, I don't think you can because I don't think JustThinking has any facts to back up his supposition.) Try that because insults only cloud the issue. :)--> I hate Kmart Walmart is better :)-->

Mister P: you make some excellent points. I keep getting this nagging feeling that the 1991 Gulf War, which started this whole Iraq quagmire, was started cause it was all about The Bush Family's (and other oligarch's) oil interests, and how dare Saddam Hussein threaten those interests. I hope I'm wrong, but that thought just keeps popping in my head. :)-->

Linda Z, my view is, he did the best he could under the circumstances. Yeah, Craig was a novice coordinator who made lots and lots of mistakes; and I saw proof of that from being in the Sick Corps for a few months. And who was around to do a better job? If anyone was, don't you think VPW would have put that person in charge? He wanted the thing to work, didn't he?I think you have to take what you've got and make the best of it; that's how I view VPW's handling of Craig, Rosalie and gang. :)-->

If I have my facts correct, Rosalie was a married woman with child who got a divorce. Later on after VPW's death, presumably in the 1990's, rumors surfaced that Rosalie might be having sex with Donna Martindale. So to answer your question, I haven't seen any evidence that Rosalie was having same sex when VPW was alive, much less that he knew about something like that; so no, it has nothing to do with his spiritual judgment in allowing Rosalie to handle ministry functions. VPW wasn't a "Genuine Spiritual Suspicion" man; that came with Craig. Heck, I don't even know if Rosalie's really a lesbian -- cause experts tell us that there are all kinds of gradations of sexual orientation, and maybe Rosalie isn't lesbian at all but bisexual, who knows? You're starting with an assumption that Rosalie is gay, which you don't know, then building on it with another assumption, that VPW might have known. You're out of gas, JustThinking. Unless you can prove otherwise ... :)-->

What makes you believe that there was proof when VPW was alive? Come on JustThinking, just think about what you're just thinking about what you're suggesting and if you have proof, then show us the beef. :)-->

So then you're suggesting that VP knew that Rosalie Rivenbark was a practicing lesbian? Prove it.

Sunesis, I don't know who you are and I don't think we've ever met, but if you care to reveal your identity, which I will keep totally confidential, my email is oldiesmanpics@aol.com or ppolizotto@aol.com. :)-->

Nothing. ... No man can guarantee the actions of another ... :)-->

It was never good enough for me that these folks left for no other reason than for following Vince F. Like the pot calling the kettle black, they are guilty themselves of practicing "carnality", the same thing they were accusing us of. The blind leading the blind. ... oops I said this twice, hope you rational folks understand where I'm coming from ... :)-->

I never left twi -- they left me. :)--> I think it was more like 95%. I think had Vince stood with Craig, those folks would have hung around longer. But in those days, it was like the pot calling the kettle black. Vince was calling us Carnal Thinkers for "standing with" Craig, but look at all those folks who "stood with" Vince and Geer.Wordwolf, if that doesn't apply to you, more power to you. Some folks did leave independently on their own, instead of pointing one massive finger. :)-->

Uncle Hairy, just a random thought, have you ever spoken with JP about the charges leveled against his father and how he feels about them? I'd love to hear Wierwille family members respond to comments/accusations; and I think it would help some of us if they talked about it. :)-->

On principle, I think what they're doing is great, but it would be a shame to spend thousands and not win; hopefully they got some really good legal advice and have a better than 50/50 chance. :)-->