oldiesman

Thanks for the support, Johniam. :)--> "Let us not irritate one another" Wow that's impossible in a lively debate forum. ;)-->

Pedro, who's your daddy? :)-->

Ok, let's apply the Leaven Principle. Shall we throw out the Book of Solomon, because Solomon was a sex addict?I believe some of you might be misinterpreting the verses about leaven to mean that a little bad makes the whole thing bad. Some examples: My job is sometimes hell, therefore everything about my job is bad because of a little hell. My apartment is cold, therefore everything about my apartment is bad because the heater is malfunctioning. My cat is sick, therefore everything about my relationship with my cat is bad cause he's sick. My butt aches after driving over 100 consecutive miles on my motorcycle, therefore everything about my motorcycle experience is bad. Thomas Jefferson had slaves, therefore everything about his life is bad cause he had slaves. Mozart had sexual perversions, so that makes everything he did bad cause of his perversions. Wierwille committed disgusting sins at various points in his life, therefore everything about his life and teachings are bad ... Nah, I don't believe it. But I do believe the verses about leaven in context are talking about present tense removing those who cause trouble in the church. That's the way I read it in the context.

Uncle Hairy's Parable, paraphrased with my thoughts: A man was almost dead in the desert, dying of thirst. Another man walks up to him and gives him a cold glass of water (twig fellowship). The man gets his thirst quenched, and is thankful for the man who gave him the water. The man with the water said, sir, I have lots and lots more water that will help you even more, but it will cost you $10.00, because it cost me time and money to bottle it (PFAL). "I think this is the best water around, but it's still your choice, if ya don't like it, you don't have to buy it", the man with the water says. The dying man bought the extra water, and bought the extra water for years and years, cause he was pleased with this deal and benefitted from it. A short time later, a beautiful maiden was dying of thirst in the desert. A man walks up to her and gives her a cold glass of water (twig fellowship). The woman gets her thirst quenched, and is thankful for the man who gave her the water. The man with the water said, maam, I have lots and lots more water that will help you even more, but it will cost you $10.00, because it cost me time and money to bottle it. "I think this is the best water around, but it's still your choice, if ya don't like it, you don't have to buy it." The woman bought the extra water, and bought the extra water for years and years, cause she was pleased with this deal and benefitted from it. The aforementioned happened thousands of times. Fast forward 15 years later: The first man who benefitted for years from drinking the other man's water overheard a group of people talking. They were talking about how evil the man with the water was, because he raped and beat a woman...they were saying that he was worthy of contempt in every regard because of what he had done to the woman... Suddenly the man who benefitted for years spoke out in defense of the man with the water. He was dumbfounded! He didn't realize that this man had an evil side of him! How can you defend this brutal abuser? other others said. The man replied and said...I am dumbfounded and saddened to find out that the man who gave me the water had an evil side to him, however, when I was dying, the man gave me water, and this water has blessed me for years, it was what I needed at the time and has helped me for years after that. The man I knew, the one with the water, wasn't the man you're talking about. The others say to him, "hey j@ckfoot, you calling us liars?" "No", the man replied, "but I experienced something different that what you're talking about, and saw with my eyes many others who had the same experience as myself." "Does that count for anything"? "Well", the others said, "anything good that you and others experienced means nothing, what means anything are this man's evil deeds, and that's all that matters, you whitewashing sob." End of parable.

I guess part of my question was how to view the above quote and the quote from Steve. I could ignore them, but wanted to really think about it and see if there was a way to view those things positively or try to see where these folks were coming from. All I could see was that maybe renouncing the Word was what they were talking about without really saying it.Even though I am cognizant that VPW was a flawed man who didn't live circumspectly, as the bible mandates a man of God should, thereby hurting others -- should I feel bad that "I Got Mine"? By the way, I still view the "I Got Mine" as GOD meeting my needs via twi, so to see something bad about "I Got Mine" would be in essence to renounce God working in my life. And that's not an easy thing or even a smart thing for me to do. If something is wrong with the fact that "I Got Mine", I'd like to know what. That fact that we got something from God is good, isn't it? If nothing is wrong with the fact that "I Got Mine", then would it be fair to say that the statement is nothing more than a put-down? or even perhaps a slap in God's face, since He was the one who gave me "Mine"? I guess it's the idea some folks might think, by their statements, that those of us who are still thankful for their past relations with twi seem to come off (to them) as "not caring that others suffered"? Where does that come from, and how is it that these folks say that? Of course I care that others suffered and things went wrong. Duh. What reasonable person wouldn't? The question is, what is the appropriate response, knowing these things? And so what is to be learned and what should be the godly response to the above quote from Wordwolf, if any? I'm going to read and consider and hope somebody can write something that makes sense, cause I can't make sense of it right now.

John Lynn described this phenomenon as "throwing the baby out with the bathwater." A Greasespot poster described it as follows: We learned God's Word in TWI. Not everything we were taught is the truth, but what is truth, is truth, and is God's will for us to know and believe. There are some basic truths we learned in twi that are common Christian beliefs. And so I wonder why some folks find it wrong that some folks cling on to these truths, even though mindful of sins committed in twi. I think some folks think we who still believe these truths, should renounce them, because of the evil deeds of some in twi. Are folks like myself being selfish because we refuse to renounce our beliefs? I just don't get it, so I'd like to know if there are any biblical or logical viewpoints out there that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is something God expects of us? That we should renounce our beliefs because of the evils of twi? That those folks who choose to do so, should feel ashamed, for retaining and being thankful for learning the Wuuuuuurd, even though others got hurt in twi ...

Speak for yourself, Rascal...Lots of folks are thankful for the timeless truths learned in twi, folks that benefitted and still are by fellowshipping in twi and the offshoots ... and folks not fellowshipping like me but aware that truth made them free... Seems you can't stand that, cause all you want to focus on are the sins of Wierwille and the bot. Seems that's all you're about, focusing and augmenting the trash. But enjoy your Weenie Roast, have a peaceful time. Happy Weekend, one and all! :)-->

Hi Rascal, hey, can't you enjoy your Weenie Roast without criticising me for one day? Have a peaceful day, enjoy it, have fun... :)-->

Good one, JustThinking. One of the downsides of Blind Obedience ... :)-->

Krysilis, thx for confirming this. Lots and lots of folks did the same thing, thinking they were doing the spiritual thing by leaving. I thought a particularly pathetic situation were my twig coordinators at the time, who knew me and fellowshipped with me for years, but couldn't give a fig what I thought about this. I asked them to write down their concerns about twi, and address them directly with Don Wierwille, who I previously phoned myself and was told it was ok for *anyone* who had concerns to phone him. They simply refused.Had they followed through on my request, what better opportunity to prove that I am wrong by giving me reasons where I'm off? But no, no appreciable reason why they left was given other than my *Carnality* for deciding to stand with Craig Martindale and the bot. The famous "Loyalty Letter". We were following men, yada yada yada. And the same folks accusing us of following men, were following Vince F. and Chris G. That's why I refer to these specific folks were acting like the pot calling the kettle black. And of course, today, these folks may still think they did the exact right thing, but only now they have good reasons why cause of the revealed sins of Wierwille and Martindale. Like patting them selves on the back for doing the right thing... God love 'em. :)-->

JustThinking, no question there were folks who did check things out for themselves. More power to ya. But I was referring to those folks in NY who were calling us Carnal Thinkers, while simultaneously thinking carnally themselves.People had different experiences with the BOT. Mine were ok. Of course, I was willing to overlook past problems, while some others were not; maybe that has something to do with it. :)-->

I thought they weren't allowing Doug to enter, period. Now all he has to do is sign a waiver and he's in? Depending on what the waiver states, on the surface this seems like a reasonable request, because what happens if someone goes there and trashes the place? I think it's reasonable to expect an organization to control and protect their property.

No problem, Exc... :)--> Jim, you made an excellent point there. Another one to keep in mind is Craig became president back in 1982, and any happenings after that might need to be examined in the light of who's actually responsible. VPW was gradually ceding his duties and he died in 1985.

Excathedra, if you think you have a monopoly on being hurt in life, you're mistaken. I'm surprised at the condescension. Come on Steve, I know you're such a sensitive guy, but this isn't Oprah.Viewpoints vary. :)-->

It's an individual choice one may make if they wish to. I'm not telling anyone anything, just sharing what works for me. :)-->

The attitude I try to have when someone's let me down enough to kill my soul and taken advantage of me -- I try to move on and focus on the good things in my life, build on them, and leave behind the past hurt, and I try my best to forgive. It's sometimes difficult, sometimes seem impossible, and I do fail; but it's one of God's commandments and when I actually do it, I see the benefits of doing the Word. :)-->

Disagreement here. Wierwille's harshest criticisms come from license, not legalism.I believe legalism in all of twi manifested under LCM's watch, because beginning in the early to middle 1990's, he was taking counsel and advice from Rosalie and Donna. Folks in the know have maintained this, that when LCM started following their counsel (chiefly Rosalie's), that's when the destructive legalism actually took root. I believe their claims.

Daddyhoundog, If there were a website devoted to your father's sinful life, daily defaming him and talking mostly trash about him, and some one or two posters speak kind things about him, would you be motivated to say a word to those folks who speak kindly about him? If you wanted to speak, what would you say? Would you ask them to be quiet? -or- Would you be grateful that they remembered what good he may have done? It's hard to compare these issues because I think Wierwille's contributions were more than economics. :)-->

One man's heresy is another man's truth. ... I think we learn from Greasespot Cafe and the continued existence of twi and the offshoots that lots of folks believe they received truth from twi, and it's up to the individual to decide for themselves whether it makes sense or not. Experences vary. Perfection is in the Lord. People sin. But God's Kingdom was never out of business because of man's sins; thank God for that continuous theme in the bible and history. :)-->

Yes we got the Word, absolutely.Who cares about how VPW conducted his life? Lots of folks do and have pain and consternation over it. Unfortunately, at the time, we couldn't do anything about it cause most of us were out of touch with his secret sins. How were we to know? Only folks that knew, I suppose, were the ones directly involved with all that. Wierwille's secret sins doesn't negate the godliness manifested in twi-1. Heck, lots of folks got born again, with lots of other goodies. You gonna call that rotten? Not me. :)-->

Wordwolf, you've misquoted some of my statements and surmised things I didn't say, and forgot to include in your diatribe that I agreed with Linda Z, who made excellent points against VPW's judgment. This thread started off with the supposition that VPW had bad judgment because Rosalie was possibly a lesbian. He should have known, or whatever. I think I disproved that point, and nobody else came in to argue it further. And when the thread was diverted, I agreed with some of the later points. I disagree with you that VPW's motives and decisions were motivated by money. In order to know that, one has to have inside knowledge on a person's heart and innermost being, and perhaps you think you're that all knowing and smart; but I'm not making that assumption or surmising that evil accusation unless I know for sure. :)-->

dmiller, I did read the papers you sent me and thought they were very interesting, and also self-serving. I take it you believe what was said to be the truth? Ok, here's a quote from the paper and please let me know where you stand on this statement: :)-->

Wordwolf, I didn't think that predicting the future was one of your longsuits. Are you a prophet? :)-->

Rascal, I just went in my profile and removed your name. The quote is now paraphrased. I'm not adding the first sentence, because you misquoted me, and I don't want to be misquoted. What's more, the first sentence has little to do with the point I want accentuated, that twi had many many outstanding folks that were kind hearted and manifested fruit of the spirit in their lives. I think you're hassling me so much because you don't want that part of twi accentuated or repeated too much; no, I think you just want only the trash accentuated and repeated continuously. It's apparently your M.O. ... So I took off your name and it will go when the system updates, and it's up to the Greasespot Gods whether or not I'll be allowed to paraphase your quote. It's a good one. But if it disappears, you know that they dispproved of it as paraphrased. :)-->

Rascal please take a nanosecond out of your hateful rage and breath deeply. :)-->