oldiesman

Raf: True. But ask yourself this: had folks like me, and others, already been observing and benefitting with these things, would we have needed or wanted to get involved with twi when we did? The teachings were not present in my life before Wierwille's influence, so I say he's a part of influencing, teaching, expounding these excellent Christian teachings and doctrines to me. ...An observation: some folks think its wrong that positive godly experiences of twi be remembered and shared, but instead it's better to have all those goodies supplanted by the abuse and evils. But I believe we should just state it as it was ... both good and bad. :)-->

I really don't know that answer, but, it was twi that was the group that taught the benefits of Christian doctrine, when I really needed it. Judging from the way folks are in general, that might have been next to impossible. It's very very hard to change minds, especially those minds running organizations. People at the top tend to support and perpetuate the accepted traditions. Whether Heefner and Doop could have done a better job overall is speculative. We don't know what would have happened. Just a general observation: they weren't thrown out of the ministry by Wierwille's actions, weren't marked and avoided; just removed from their positions. I think they remained in some way after that, didn't they? At least they could have. Lots of good folks left. What about Dave Anderson? He left in 1973. We don't know what "would have" happened if these things didn't happen; all we could do is communicate and bear witness to the things that DID happen. :)-->

Wordwolf, A lot of the benefits of Wierwille's ministry and teachings are common Christian themes today .. that's true. But back in the early 70's, I didn't see those things as common at all. Coming from a Roman Catholic background they certainly weren't. I remember VPW saying the Way Ministry wouldn't be needed if the organized churches of the day were teaching this stuff. I believe that to be true, for if the RC church had been teaching some of the doctrines that Wierwille was, I probably wouldn't have been attracted to twi in the first place. ESPECIALLY salvation by grace, speaking in tongues, the integrity of the scriptures, etc. etc. The fact that the benefits and godly fruits of Wierwilles teachings are common in Christian circles today, doesn't diminish the impact it had on us folks who needed to hear it. The godly fruits of Wierwilles teachings are a part of history and there's still some of us around who appreciate its effects. I don't throw that out because of Wierwilles sins. And the fact that you confirm that a lot of these benefits are common benefits of Christendom today, only confirms that Wierwille was right on and a blessing, on many significant issues ... :)-->

Here's some: Folks getting born again, understanding that impact and being certain, to know that you know that you know you're heaven bound, no power from hell can stop you from going Folks knowing that Jesus Christ's death and suffering was the complete payment for man's sins Folks understanding more about the bible, believing it's accuracy and integrity Folks understanding the difference between salvation by grace, and salvation by works Folks understanding from scripture what their rights (5 sonship rights) and responsibilities (preaching the Word), are in Christ Folks understanding from scripture what it means to manifest holy spirit Folks understanding from scripture that the dead are not alive now Folks understanding from scripture the differences between "son of God" and "God the Son", and the various implications of both Folks understanding about Jesus Christ our Passover, Jesus Christ our Promised Seed Folks understanding, respecting and appreciating various other very good bible teachers, such as B.G. Leonard, Stiles, Bullinger, Kenyon, Jones, etc. etc. ... :)-->

Oakspear: I've thrown out not what I feel is inconvenient, but what I now sincerely believe to be error. "Tithing for Prosperity" is erroneous, "The Law of Believing" isn't all that certain, doesn't work like gravity, etc. Eli eli, etc. There's probably more. But but but there are so many truths that I've clung to, that are very hard to just cut out of my life -- would be like cutting out my heart or liver. I'm willing to listen to all arguments and viewpoints against what we were taught in twi; but unless it makes sense to change in a certain category, it's pretty hard, and might be pretty foolish, to do so just because of Wierwille's sinning. ... :)-->

Because it's reasonable to acknowledge that Wierwille moved the Word, and helped folks, who desperately needed help at the time. He was part of the body of Christ that helped folks come to the body, and learn more about that body. So did Bullinger, Stiles, Leonard, and all the rest. Wierwille was part of all that as well. :)-->

I suppose another way of saying this is, if you make the Word "your own", as VPW suggested we do, then you have come to the conclusion that what he taught in certain topics is truth, and you've gotten that in your heart by "independent" means, other than what you think is twi brainwashing and mind control. ... :)-->

The truth does stand without Wierwille. Wierwille is dead. But it doesn't mean he didn't teach it at one time ... :)-->

Well, we're talking about whether he was a doctor or not, not whether he hurt folks, which we all say he did from time to time. But I would phrase it another way: "The fact that he hurt my brothers and sisters in Christ, which I do not rejoice in, doesn't cause me to question the truth that he taught." :)-->

Oakspear: What's so significant about independent effort as opposed to twi, if what twi said in a certain topic was true? Unless you think we weren't taught the truth in twi in a certain area, which is certainly possible, what's the problem with taking it as it was, from twi?Your apparent zeal to divorce yourself from every aspect of your experience in twi is your choice, but it doesn't have to be that way for someone who is satisfied with certain truths being taught there. I'd be happy about, and say the same good things about, every other denomination that teaches truth, in a certain area. This reminds me a little of the Apostle Paul who said he was happy Christ was being preached and he gloried in that, even from not-so-reputable sources. With that attitude, he'd be happy that twi was around even today. Go ahead and question everything. But my view is that what I believe today is firmly set in my heart, and only when one comes up with some serious, rational challenges that make sense, I'll continue to say "where's the beef". The whole concept of questioning everything is reasonable. I think we should do that anyway, irrespective of Wierwille's behavior, which is the context you have put this discussion in. :)-->

This is true. Paul of Tarsus was a murderer. If God focused on those evil deeds alone (as some wish to focus only on VPW's evil deeds alone), I think we may have much less truth than we do now. :)-->

On the contrary, isn't it foolish to discard truth, because of a person's sins? Yes, I believe it's best and necessary to examine each doctrine and let it stand or fall, on its own; but, IRRESPECTIVE of Wierwille's sinning. Why allow his sins to keep you from enjoying and believing the truth? But if truth has already been arrived at through Wierwille and twi, why is it necessary for it to be replaced, through other methods? Truth is truth. :)-->

Quote by Ralph D. ... :)-->

Quote by Research Geek ... :)-->

My3cents: I disagree with you; since nothing was in VPW's name, none of it was his personally. It all belonged to TWI. That's why his family has nothing now. Had it all belonged to Victor Paul, in his name, his family would be beneficiaries. The point is, VPW wanted the whole shebang to go back into "the ministry". Not Rosalie, she's got her house in her name, and whatever else.

Some items I consider to be "The Baby": Jesus is the Messiah, the son of God, confess the Lord Jesus and believe God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (Rom. 10:9) 5 Sonship Rights: Righteousness, Sanctification, Justification, Redemption, Ministry of Reconciliation Salvation by Grace, not of works Power of Attorney -- Claiming Your Sonship Rights in Christ's Name. Believing it's "Christ in You, the Hope of Glory" Being Born Again of Incorruptible Seed, heaven bound, no power from hell can stop you from going Dead are not alive now It's possible to operate all nine "manifestations", and they are manifestations, not gifts of the spirit. Speaking in tongues is a real biggie here. The Word of God is the Will of God ... ever abiding respect for the scriptures.Some items I consider to be "The Bathwater": Tithing for Prosperity The Law of Believing, especially on the negative side (fear is believing, etc.) Unclear doctrine on adultery and fornication Way Corps caste system and egotism and its detrimental effects on Joe Believers all over the ministry. I'm sure there's a whole lot more, that's all I can think of right now. :)-->

Song, we learned in PFAL that those who are born again are members of the body of Christ. So what Craig said, if he said it, was wrong. I got out in 1990, so I can't speak for what happened after that. I hear a few strange things every now and then .... Craig saying that TWI was the "only true body of Christ" is one of them. :)-->

sky4it, I agree with your viewpoints here. Thanks for sharing. ... :)-->

I wholeheartedly agree, it's a lame claim. I think forum postings are nothing more than opinions. Only exception I would make is that if you personally know the person posting, and know they are absolutely truthful in real life, then you can take what they say as being truthful. :)-->

"We got the Word over the Word already" :)-->

JustThinking, The biblical concepts I believe from twi mean a whole lot to me. Give me some good reasons why I ought to throw the baby out with the bathwater ... :)-->

Funny thing is, he never had to lie about anything, to prove that his good works had an impact on folks. For a moment, throw out the instances he lied and look at it ... look at his life without those, and still, he contributed significantly and meaningfully. VPW didn't promote a scam. Many many folks got born again, and came to a more accurate knowledge of the truth, through VPW's efforts. That's not a definition of a scam. :)-->

If there's anyone out there who initially got involved with twi, or stayed involved with twi, because of "Dr. Wierwille's Educational Background" please raise your hand. I'd be very interested in hearing about your stowry, and how that matters any with one's spiritual life ... As far as I'm concerned, he could have been a high school dropout ... wouldn't matter one bit. In fact, if he WAS a highschool dropout, some might say that what he achieved later in life proves that formal schooling means little or nothing. Check this out, here's some famous high school dropouts: H.G. Wells Jim Clark Jimmy Dean Andrew Jackson Ray Charles Maurice Chevalier Ellen Burnstyn Raymond Burr Glen Campbell Dizzy Gillespie Patrick Henry Julie Andrews Louis Armstrong Lucille Ball Patrick Stewart Roy Rogers Alfred E. Smith Sonny Bono Cher And the Beat Goes On! Have a great weekend, one and all! :)-->

Sadie, back in 1948, it was a little different stowry ... :)-->

Sadie, saying you're a group that proclaims the truth, and saying you're the ONLY group that proclaims the truth, are two different claims. :)-->