oldiesman

Wordwolf, I don't know the letter you're referring to. Can I have a copy? My opinion about the pot calling the kettle black is for the people who were accusing us of being Carnal Thinkers -- chiefly, Vince F. There were others too. But I do believe that most folks (average believers) who left were following their local leadership without examining the other side of the coin and confronting the BOT with the apprehensions. For instance, how many folks actually called headquarters to make an attempt to speak to one of the trustees? Very few. I happen to know for a fact that Don Wierwille was taking phone calls from anyone who would listen, back in those days. I personally asked my twig coordinators to do that, call Don and voice their concerns to him, but they refused. I eventually left their twig, because they couldn't give a fig about what I thought.

What's the point of spewing insults? Instead of that, whether I accept your facts/logic or not, there are other folks viewing our posts who may accept what you're saying, and at least you'd be making some sense instead of writing insults. And I'd be more inclined to accept what you're writing if it makes logical sense. Try it. :)-->

Steve!, instead of spewing insults, why not try to defend JustThinking's points by facts and logic, if you can. (in this case, I don't think you can because I don't think JustThinking has any facts to back up his supposition.) Try that because insults only cloud the issue. :)--> I hate Kmart Walmart is better :)-->

Mister P: you make some excellent points. I keep getting this nagging feeling that the 1991 Gulf War, which started this whole Iraq quagmire, was started cause it was all about The Bush Family's (and other oligarch's) oil interests, and how dare Saddam Hussein threaten those interests. I hope I'm wrong, but that thought just keeps popping in my head. :)-->

Linda Z, my view is, he did the best he could under the circumstances. Yeah, Craig was a novice coordinator who made lots and lots of mistakes; and I saw proof of that from being in the Sick Corps for a few months. And who was around to do a better job? If anyone was, don't you think VPW would have put that person in charge? He wanted the thing to work, didn't he?I think you have to take what you've got and make the best of it; that's how I view VPW's handling of Craig, Rosalie and gang. :)-->

If I have my facts correct, Rosalie was a married woman with child who got a divorce. Later on after VPW's death, presumably in the 1990's, rumors surfaced that Rosalie might be having sex with Donna Martindale. So to answer your question, I haven't seen any evidence that Rosalie was having same sex when VPW was alive, much less that he knew about something like that; so no, it has nothing to do with his spiritual judgment in allowing Rosalie to handle ministry functions. VPW wasn't a "Genuine Spiritual Suspicion" man; that came with Craig. Heck, I don't even know if Rosalie's really a lesbian -- cause experts tell us that there are all kinds of gradations of sexual orientation, and maybe Rosalie isn't lesbian at all but bisexual, who knows? You're starting with an assumption that Rosalie is gay, which you don't know, then building on it with another assumption, that VPW might have known. You're out of gas, JustThinking. Unless you can prove otherwise ... :)-->

What makes you believe that there was proof when VPW was alive? Come on JustThinking, just think about what you're just thinking about what you're suggesting and if you have proof, then show us the beef. :)-->

So then you're suggesting that VP knew that Rosalie Rivenbark was a practicing lesbian? Prove it.

Sunesis, I don't know who you are and I don't think we've ever met, but if you care to reveal your identity, which I will keep totally confidential, my email is oldiesmanpics@aol.com or ppolizotto@aol.com. :)-->

Nothing. ... No man can guarantee the actions of another ... :)-->

It was never good enough for me that these folks left for no other reason than for following Vince F. Like the pot calling the kettle black, they are guilty themselves of practicing "carnality", the same thing they were accusing us of. The blind leading the blind. ... oops I said this twice, hope you rational folks understand where I'm coming from ... :)-->

I never left twi -- they left me. :)--> I think it was more like 95%. I think had Vince stood with Craig, those folks would have hung around longer. But in those days, it was like the pot calling the kettle black. Vince was calling us Carnal Thinkers for "standing with" Craig, but look at all those folks who "stood with" Vince and Geer.Wordwolf, if that doesn't apply to you, more power to you. Some folks did leave independently on their own, instead of pointing one massive finger. :)-->

Uncle Hairy, just a random thought, have you ever spoken with JP about the charges leveled against his father and how he feels about them? I'd love to hear Wierwille family members respond to comments/accusations; and I think it would help some of us if they talked about it. :)-->

On principle, I think what they're doing is great, but it would be a shame to spend thousands and not win; hopefully they got some really good legal advice and have a better than 50/50 chance. :)-->

WOW I feel 180 degrees opposite ever since hearing in PFAL that I am completely, completely absolutely complete in Him. Spiritual deprivation abounded in my life before TWI-1, when I was ignorant of the truth and fearful of eternal hellfire and brimstone. Enter twi-1 and PFAL, speaking the truth in love and the truth cleared up massive error and fears of eternal darkness. I thank God for TWI-1 and PFAL and VPW and others teaching truth that made some sense and made me free. :)-->

Alfakat, yes, I thought we were rightly dividing the word and others mostly were not; and I thought we were teaching the truth, more so than anyone else. That's vastly different than saying PFAL was the ONLY TRUTH in the world. I never believed that. Where other groups were teaching truth, I was glad. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses taught the correct teaching on hell and the dead not being alive. They taught that Jesus is God's son. I believe they are teaching truth there. Other Christian groups are teaching salvation by grace, same deal. Does twi have the ONLY truth in these categories? No. "He'll teach me the word like it hadn't been known since the first century" doesn't mean that nobody else had truth, and if you thought that, I think you were mistaken. We still had brains to see others having truth in various teachings, you didn't see that? If you believed that PFAL contained the ONLY TRUTH in the world, then you must have believed that everyone else was wrong on every point. Well I think that's mistaken and not representative of what twi was teaching back in those days. Other folks were teaching truth and how could Wierwille deny that? He didn't. From the class (approx. quote): "when and where we rightly divide the Word, we have truth; when and where we wrongly divide the Word, we have error." Anyone, even non-twi folks, can and did do that. :)-->

It's been playing in my head all afternoon ... Certain in the midst of uncertainty ... yeah yeah yeah .... :)-->

In my opinion, the best way to take PFAL is at a one-week camp surrounded by beautiful sweet-smelling peaceful mother nature with not a care or worry in the world. :)-->

Steve, I hate Kmart. Aww, don't be sad, be happy. Because God even helps us folks who aren't as spiritually enlightened as yourself. ...

This sounds something like that famous phrase "Eat the fish, and spit out the bones." Only question is, what is fish, and what is bone? I guess that's the individual's decision to work out in their own life. :)-->

Nothing from twi. If anyone thought that, they weren't using their head ...VPW said in his PFAL books that he learned from men of God, scattered across the continent. Obviously, truth exists outside of twi, that's where twi got it from. Thank God twi got it right about salvation too. Had I believed the stuff from my RC background, I couldn't move onto another Christian group without eternal damnation awaiting my soul. :)-->

My thoughts exactly, dmiller. :)-->

Here are some of my long-term benefits at the hands of twi... The bible is the word of God, something that has integrity and trustworthiness Anybody who believes Romans 10:9 is saved, no matter what denomination or group they are with. Christians are saved by God's grace, not works Being born again, which gift is never to be taken away How to manifest holy spirit, principally SIT The Dead are not alive now but dead until Christ's return and the resurrections God is a loving and forgiving God How to talk and reason about God and the bible with folks who may want to know more ... :)-->

The thing is, at this point it doesn't matter whether he was trustworthy or not; what matters is the content of the teachings and whether it makes sense. A lot of PFAL still makes sense to me. Some of it doesn't.I can't arbitrarily throw out what makes sense, just because Wierwille didn't live up to what he should have as a minister. :)-->

George Carlin can talk and burp at the same time. :)-->