oldiesman

I thought they weren't allowing Doug to enter, period. Now all he has to do is sign a waiver and he's in? Depending on what the waiver states, on the surface this seems like a reasonable request, because what happens if someone goes there and trashes the place? I think it's reasonable to expect an organization to control and protect their property.

No problem, Exc... :)--> Jim, you made an excellent point there. Another one to keep in mind is Craig became president back in 1982, and any happenings after that might need to be examined in the light of who's actually responsible. VPW was gradually ceding his duties and he died in 1985.

Excathedra, if you think you have a monopoly on being hurt in life, you're mistaken. I'm surprised at the condescension. Come on Steve, I know you're such a sensitive guy, but this isn't Oprah.Viewpoints vary. :)-->

It's an individual choice one may make if they wish to. I'm not telling anyone anything, just sharing what works for me. :)-->

The attitude I try to have when someone's let me down enough to kill my soul and taken advantage of me -- I try to move on and focus on the good things in my life, build on them, and leave behind the past hurt, and I try my best to forgive. It's sometimes difficult, sometimes seem impossible, and I do fail; but it's one of God's commandments and when I actually do it, I see the benefits of doing the Word. :)-->

Disagreement here. Wierwille's harshest criticisms come from license, not legalism.I believe legalism in all of twi manifested under LCM's watch, because beginning in the early to middle 1990's, he was taking counsel and advice from Rosalie and Donna. Folks in the know have maintained this, that when LCM started following their counsel (chiefly Rosalie's), that's when the destructive legalism actually took root. I believe their claims.

Daddyhoundog, If there were a website devoted to your father's sinful life, daily defaming him and talking mostly trash about him, and some one or two posters speak kind things about him, would you be motivated to say a word to those folks who speak kindly about him? If you wanted to speak, what would you say? Would you ask them to be quiet? -or- Would you be grateful that they remembered what good he may have done? It's hard to compare these issues because I think Wierwille's contributions were more than economics. :)-->

One man's heresy is another man's truth. ... I think we learn from Greasespot Cafe and the continued existence of twi and the offshoots that lots of folks believe they received truth from twi, and it's up to the individual to decide for themselves whether it makes sense or not. Experences vary. Perfection is in the Lord. People sin. But God's Kingdom was never out of business because of man's sins; thank God for that continuous theme in the bible and history. :)-->

Yes we got the Word, absolutely.Who cares about how VPW conducted his life? Lots of folks do and have pain and consternation over it. Unfortunately, at the time, we couldn't do anything about it cause most of us were out of touch with his secret sins. How were we to know? Only folks that knew, I suppose, were the ones directly involved with all that. Wierwille's secret sins doesn't negate the godliness manifested in twi-1. Heck, lots of folks got born again, with lots of other goodies. You gonna call that rotten? Not me. :)-->

Wordwolf, you've misquoted some of my statements and surmised things I didn't say, and forgot to include in your diatribe that I agreed with Linda Z, who made excellent points against VPW's judgment. This thread started off with the supposition that VPW had bad judgment because Rosalie was possibly a lesbian. He should have known, or whatever. I think I disproved that point, and nobody else came in to argue it further. And when the thread was diverted, I agreed with some of the later points. I disagree with you that VPW's motives and decisions were motivated by money. In order to know that, one has to have inside knowledge on a person's heart and innermost being, and perhaps you think you're that all knowing and smart; but I'm not making that assumption or surmising that evil accusation unless I know for sure. :)-->

dmiller, I did read the papers you sent me and thought they were very interesting, and also self-serving. I take it you believe what was said to be the truth? Ok, here's a quote from the paper and please let me know where you stand on this statement: :)-->

Wordwolf, I didn't think that predicting the future was one of your longsuits. Are you a prophet? :)-->

Rascal, I just went in my profile and removed your name. The quote is now paraphrased. I'm not adding the first sentence, because you misquoted me, and I don't want to be misquoted. What's more, the first sentence has little to do with the point I want accentuated, that twi had many many outstanding folks that were kind hearted and manifested fruit of the spirit in their lives. I think you're hassling me so much because you don't want that part of twi accentuated or repeated too much; no, I think you just want only the trash accentuated and repeated continuously. It's apparently your M.O. ... So I took off your name and it will go when the system updates, and it's up to the Greasespot Gods whether or not I'll be allowed to paraphase your quote. It's a good one. But if it disappears, you know that they dispproved of it as paraphrased. :)-->

Rascal please take a nanosecond out of your hateful rage and breath deeply. :)-->

Rascal, don't you ever consider that someone can make an error? I looked again at the quote and left out the first sentence of it. Sorry about that. But, now that I look at it, that's not what I said you said I said. I said: I didn't say "Craig and rosie and howard were the *best* that vp had available." I said I thought VPW did his best under the circumstances. So I don't want to add that in because it gives the wrong impression and misquotes what I actually said.However, if you want me to remove your name, I will do so. Let me know. :)-->

Excathedra, I believe confirmation by the Wierwille children of the allegations against their father would tend to lend more credibility to the allegations and help those of us who have a hard time believing that VPW was the very bad person that some portray him as. :)-->

Rascal, your quote is now exact with the exception of my added "(in twi)" so folks who don't know you were talking about twi, know exactly who you were talking about. Do you object to me adding those words? I will remove them if you insist, but don't know why you'd be afraid of letting folks know you're talking about twi. Since you're someone who wants to be totally upfront with folks and not keep them in the dark, I assume you'd agree, but let me know ...

Thanks Rascal. :)-->

Cherished Child, I don't know but somehow I have a different view. If it's ever possible, I'd still like to hear it from their lips or computers that they believe and confirm the allegations against their father. Maybe wishful thinking, but I'm not making any assumptions that they are silent because of VPW'S supposed "shameful legacy". I think it may be spinned every which way, until we hear it directly from them. :)-->

Rascal, if I use your entire quote instead of a paraphrase, is it ok if I use your name as well? If not, if you don't want me to use your name, then I have to paraphrase. It's a good statement and reminder of what kind of ministry we were in and who was there. Please let me know. :)-->

Linda Z, you made some excellent points and I can't argue with them. Thanks! :)-->

JustThinking, I think the reason why folks diverted the discussion was because your original premise went out with a whimper ... Total disagreement here. TWI-1 was good because folks were good, fellowship was good, learning and love was good. Spirituality was good. It's the many many folks that manifested fruit of the spirit that made up the organization and since folks were like that, that made twi good and spiritual. Thanks, Rascal. :)-->

It's nice to know twi wasn't all bad ... :)-->

That's why I asked for the exact letter. Interpretations of what was said, and the possible meaning thereof, varies alot; therefore I'd rather see it in the original. :)--> When I spoke with Don W. over the phone, he told me that many mistakes were made and communication from the BOT hadn't been up to par and they will improve. But my thinking wasn't corrupt and I didn't view them as devil worshippers. At the time, I viewed Craig's loyalty letter as a call to recommit ourselves for one common purpose of standing together to move the Word. Everybody knew the BOT had made mistakes, the question was, where to go from here. But you had Vince F. accusing the BOT of "worshipping other gods", without getting specific. I asked for specifics and never got any when I personally spoke with Vince that year; all I got was "you are CARNAL" because you follow men. Ok whatever. Vince F. was following Geer, and as we learn later, Geer didn't have any answers himself. So you had the blind leading the blind.Reason why I stayed with twi at that time because simply put, I didn't see any reasons to leave, nobody I was speaking with at that time gave me any appreciable reasons to leave, and I wasn't going to form my life on blind suspicions. I finally left for good in 1990/91, when nobody was around anymore, and I didn't feel like travelling 1 1/2 hours to the nearest meeting. :)-->

So then your belief is that VPW set up twi and various programs just to make money? In order to know that, you'd have to know exactly what was his motive and heart behind his decisions. But I'm not going to speculate and/or falsely accuse in those areas; God is the ultimate heart searcher and He knows the score and has complete wisdom and perfect understanding of folks' hearts and motives, not us. :)-->