oldiesman

When did I say her personal testimony was false? Her personal testimony is her personal testimony. How can I claim it's false if I wasn't there to witness it for myself? If that's what she said happened to her, that's her testimony that happened to her.I will say that I don't believe everything I read on the internet, that's true. But that's a far cry from calling someone a liar. Do you believe everything you read on the internet?

I never called you or anyone a liar. Produce the quote please. I HAVE called you a false accuser, which is exactly what you are doing right now.

When did I ever write that:(1) in my world it was always all daisies and goodness and light; (2) there were never problems; (3) the experiences of others don't count; (4) others are liars? You are putting words in my mouth, and your namecalling is unnecessary.

Wordwolf, I'm not arguing against it, but I mentioned in a previous statement that I thought the verse was being misapplied by some. I read it in context as a present tense warning to remove those who cause trouble in the church. The way I see it, I get hassled so much because I don't think like some others. Period.Wordwolf, if you read attempts by me to silence personal testimonies, please offer examples of same.

Awwww Rascal, don't feel bad. I'll be ok, really. :)-->

Rascal, speak for yourself please.

Would you then presume you dumped Proverbs a long time ago, because Solomon was a man of the flesh? You know he was a sex addict, no better than Wierwille. He had 700 some odd wives? concubines? whatever. Solomon was a man of the flesh if there ever was one. So then I guess that disqualifies any spiritual workings in his life, according to The Rascal Principle?

The fact that twi-1 as we know it came to naught, doesn't change the truths taught and assimilated there. They are ever enduring, for those who choose to stand fast on them. Those who choose to throw them away can do that if they wish. However, I don't think you can throw away eternal life. :)-->

Alfakat, your rebuttal proves my point. The godly elements of twi-1 just doesn't matter. I think the folks who genuinely feel this way, should speak for themselves only because they can't speak for others who don't feel as they do, and certainly not me.

Goey, yes, this is how I read what some folks are saying when they talk about the Leaven Principle as it relates to twi. I think you're misstating what the Leaven Principle means and what folks think about it.Here's what Excathedra quoted that article said: THAT is the Leaven Principle, the baby is tainted/spoiled/no good. I think some folks are so angry and disappointed at VPW because of his transgressions, they've thrown out the baby with the bathwater because, as Pat described it, "most of the time, the crap is so integral in the baby so that even though you have thrown out the bath water, you still have a crap filled baby." Do you really believe some folks would have the problems they do with twi, had Wierwille lived a devout life? Let's take all the spin away, and answer that one question. Some folks may not say outright they believe "everything" about twi was bad, but, they may just as well say it, because that's the way I read their writings. That's why, when I bring up some "good things" about twi-1, why do some folks get so angry and defensive and engage in sarcasm, namecalling and put-downs? I think because they don't really care what good happened and don't want to hear any of it because in their mind, it doesn't matter what good existed. To them, the evil is the only thing that has any real meaning. I don't think I am misrepresenting and lying about those who think this way. It appears obvious to me by the way some people react to what I have to say that this is the way of things.

The simple answer is yes, with the proviso that some of what twi taught/teaches is wrongly divided. Stated another way, I don't think everything twi taught was/is rightly divided, but that part that was/is, is "the Word".

Oakspear, I think ALL of the posters who have been hurt by the evil works of VPW and LCM and others, and who later have renounced twi, fall in this category. If not, then why all the harsh words about VPW and TWI and people feeling like they were deceived, suckered, and cheated? Of course this is about that.I suggest you go back and read GeorgeStGeorge's last post, it's pretty powerful, and does help me see why some folks are still so angry.

Coolwaters, I think you've made some excellent comments on this thread, particularly about the one body. Please excuse my silence, and know that I'm keenly aware of your presence, and considering your thoughtful viewpoints. And thanks for not participating in the namecalling or put-downs. Actually my silence has to do with making a decision not to respond to everything written but trying to have reflective thought about it; and you've written some pretty intense food for thought. Others have too, and I think it's going to take me a while to digest it all. :)-->

Thanks for the support, Johniam. :)--> "Let us not irritate one another" Wow that's impossible in a lively debate forum. ;)-->

Pedro, who's your daddy? :)-->

Ok, let's apply the Leaven Principle. Shall we throw out the Book of Solomon, because Solomon was a sex addict?I believe some of you might be misinterpreting the verses about leaven to mean that a little bad makes the whole thing bad. Some examples: My job is sometimes hell, therefore everything about my job is bad because of a little hell. My apartment is cold, therefore everything about my apartment is bad because the heater is malfunctioning. My cat is sick, therefore everything about my relationship with my cat is bad cause he's sick. My butt aches after driving over 100 consecutive miles on my motorcycle, therefore everything about my motorcycle experience is bad. Thomas Jefferson had slaves, therefore everything about his life is bad cause he had slaves. Mozart had sexual perversions, so that makes everything he did bad cause of his perversions. Wierwille committed disgusting sins at various points in his life, therefore everything about his life and teachings are bad ... Nah, I don't believe it. But I do believe the verses about leaven in context are talking about present tense removing those who cause trouble in the church. That's the way I read it in the context.

Uncle Hairy's Parable, paraphrased with my thoughts: A man was almost dead in the desert, dying of thirst. Another man walks up to him and gives him a cold glass of water (twig fellowship). The man gets his thirst quenched, and is thankful for the man who gave him the water. The man with the water said, sir, I have lots and lots more water that will help you even more, but it will cost you $10.00, because it cost me time and money to bottle it (PFAL). "I think this is the best water around, but it's still your choice, if ya don't like it, you don't have to buy it", the man with the water says. The dying man bought the extra water, and bought the extra water for years and years, cause he was pleased with this deal and benefitted from it. A short time later, a beautiful maiden was dying of thirst in the desert. A man walks up to her and gives her a cold glass of water (twig fellowship). The woman gets her thirst quenched, and is thankful for the man who gave her the water. The man with the water said, maam, I have lots and lots more water that will help you even more, but it will cost you $10.00, because it cost me time and money to bottle it. "I think this is the best water around, but it's still your choice, if ya don't like it, you don't have to buy it." The woman bought the extra water, and bought the extra water for years and years, cause she was pleased with this deal and benefitted from it. The aforementioned happened thousands of times. Fast forward 15 years later: The first man who benefitted for years from drinking the other man's water overheard a group of people talking. They were talking about how evil the man with the water was, because he raped and beat a woman...they were saying that he was worthy of contempt in every regard because of what he had done to the woman... Suddenly the man who benefitted for years spoke out in defense of the man with the water. He was dumbfounded! He didn't realize that this man had an evil side of him! How can you defend this brutal abuser? other others said. The man replied and said...I am dumbfounded and saddened to find out that the man who gave me the water had an evil side to him, however, when I was dying, the man gave me water, and this water has blessed me for years, it was what I needed at the time and has helped me for years after that. The man I knew, the one with the water, wasn't the man you're talking about. The others say to him, "hey j@ckfoot, you calling us liars?" "No", the man replied, "but I experienced something different that what you're talking about, and saw with my eyes many others who had the same experience as myself." "Does that count for anything"? "Well", the others said, "anything good that you and others experienced means nothing, what means anything are this man's evil deeds, and that's all that matters, you whitewashing sob." End of parable.

I guess part of my question was how to view the above quote and the quote from Steve. I could ignore them, but wanted to really think about it and see if there was a way to view those things positively or try to see where these folks were coming from. All I could see was that maybe renouncing the Word was what they were talking about without really saying it.Even though I am cognizant that VPW was a flawed man who didn't live circumspectly, as the bible mandates a man of God should, thereby hurting others -- should I feel bad that "I Got Mine"? By the way, I still view the "I Got Mine" as GOD meeting my needs via twi, so to see something bad about "I Got Mine" would be in essence to renounce God working in my life. And that's not an easy thing or even a smart thing for me to do. If something is wrong with the fact that "I Got Mine", I'd like to know what. That fact that we got something from God is good, isn't it? If nothing is wrong with the fact that "I Got Mine", then would it be fair to say that the statement is nothing more than a put-down? or even perhaps a slap in God's face, since He was the one who gave me "Mine"? I guess it's the idea some folks might think, by their statements, that those of us who are still thankful for their past relations with twi seem to come off (to them) as "not caring that others suffered"? Where does that come from, and how is it that these folks say that? Of course I care that others suffered and things went wrong. Duh. What reasonable person wouldn't? The question is, what is the appropriate response, knowing these things? And so what is to be learned and what should be the godly response to the above quote from Wordwolf, if any? I'm going to read and consider and hope somebody can write something that makes sense, cause I can't make sense of it right now.

John Lynn described this phenomenon as "throwing the baby out with the bathwater." A Greasespot poster described it as follows: We learned God's Word in TWI. Not everything we were taught is the truth, but what is truth, is truth, and is God's will for us to know and believe. There are some basic truths we learned in twi that are common Christian beliefs. And so I wonder why some folks find it wrong that some folks cling on to these truths, even though mindful of sins committed in twi. I think some folks think we who still believe these truths, should renounce them, because of the evil deeds of some in twi. Are folks like myself being selfish because we refuse to renounce our beliefs? I just don't get it, so I'd like to know if there are any biblical or logical viewpoints out there that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is something God expects of us? That we should renounce our beliefs because of the evils of twi? That those folks who choose to do so, should feel ashamed, for retaining and being thankful for learning the Wuuuuuurd, even though others got hurt in twi ...

Speak for yourself, Rascal...Lots of folks are thankful for the timeless truths learned in twi, folks that benefitted and still are by fellowshipping in twi and the offshoots ... and folks not fellowshipping like me but aware that truth made them free... Seems you can't stand that, cause all you want to focus on are the sins of Wierwille and the bot. Seems that's all you're about, focusing and augmenting the trash. But enjoy your Weenie Roast, have a peaceful time. Happy Weekend, one and all! :)-->

Hi Rascal, hey, can't you enjoy your Weenie Roast without criticising me for one day? Have a peaceful day, enjoy it, have fun... :)-->

Good one, JustThinking. One of the downsides of Blind Obedience ... :)-->

Krysilis, thx for confirming this. Lots and lots of folks did the same thing, thinking they were doing the spiritual thing by leaving. I thought a particularly pathetic situation were my twig coordinators at the time, who knew me and fellowshipped with me for years, but couldn't give a fig what I thought about this. I asked them to write down their concerns about twi, and address them directly with Don Wierwille, who I previously phoned myself and was told it was ok for *anyone* who had concerns to phone him. They simply refused.Had they followed through on my request, what better opportunity to prove that I am wrong by giving me reasons where I'm off? But no, no appreciable reason why they left was given other than my *Carnality* for deciding to stand with Craig Martindale and the bot. The famous "Loyalty Letter". We were following men, yada yada yada. And the same folks accusing us of following men, were following Vince F. and Chris G. That's why I refer to these specific folks were acting like the pot calling the kettle black. And of course, today, these folks may still think they did the exact right thing, but only now they have good reasons why cause of the revealed sins of Wierwille and Martindale. Like patting them selves on the back for doing the right thing... God love 'em. :)-->

JustThinking, no question there were folks who did check things out for themselves. More power to ya. But I was referring to those folks in NY who were calling us Carnal Thinkers, while simultaneously thinking carnally themselves.People had different experiences with the BOT. Mine were ok. Of course, I was willing to overlook past problems, while some others were not; maybe that has something to do with it. :)-->