oldiesman

Another definition of a troll is a dwarf or giant, in Scandinavian folklore, inhabiting caves or hills.

Good morning folks. Wow this thread got some action over the weekend. I'd like to fly this trial balloon and see how long it takes for it to be sliced and diced and carved into oblivion: Catcup said: Or forgive someone who's dead, and can't make restitution or answer back with "I'm Sorry" when confronted with their evil acts. That doesn't mean VPW didn't do horrible things, what it means is those who consider themselves followers of the Lord should try to see it from the Lord's viewpoint: (note that this is the very same book in the bible that some use as an excuse not to forgive, unless there is repentence first.) Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. how'd ya like to have a website dedicated to your evil acts, relentless accusations about you, for all to see? And ya can't respond ... Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. Luk 6:34 And if ye lend [to them] of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil. Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Mercy is the withholding of merited condemnation. That's was Jesus thinks, what do you think?

To All Who Read This: Happy Weekend!

WOW! look at these early Way Magazines available on ebay: July 1967 Aug/Sept. 1967 December 1967 Jan. 1968 -- Filming of PFAL!

I had to quote this to make sure I wasn't imagining it... am I seeing things? there are others besides me who feel this way? hey what happened to Research Geek?

Belle: You got me curious, what was it that you disagreed with, and what doctrine did they change?

My statement is based upon experience, and common sense. While in TWI, I always got answers to questions. Everytime I wrote a letter to VPW or LCM, I always got a polite answer. Is that what we're talking about here, leaders not responding to questions? if that's the case, then my experience with twi was, I always got polite answers. I have multiple letters to prove it.Now whether those answers agreed with what I personally thought, is another matter. Here's where I rely on experience and common sense. I think that's what we're discussing here, people changing when challenged with something you think is right? I may think a doctrine or a policy is incorrect, and I may be absolutely correct. But whether an organization is going to change simply because I think a doctrine or policy is correct is an entirely different matter. If you've experienced a group that has changed a policy due to your influence, wow, now that's something! I've never experienced that. Most times, more than one voice is needed to change a policy or doctrine, like a consensus of many folks, or committee. The bible speaks of when folks don't listen to you and what to do ... you move on "shake the dust off your feet". You politely excuse yourself. Also remember the verse "if a man be ignorant, let him be ignorant"? I've been rejected many more times then I have been accepted. When we were out wow, we gave folks one or two shots if they wanted to believe with us, then if not, we moved on. Arguing only works up to a certain point, then its time to move on. Do you have a job? What if there's a policy on your job site that you think is wrong, or doesn't make sense, but your bosses think is perfectly ok? you go discuss it with them, and they will politely give you their side of the story, and their decision. You either accept it, or reject it. If you reject it and want to keep the job, you keep your mouth shut and go with the program. If you keep on challenging them, you'll eventually get fired. Such are the way of things.

This is true of every religious body. One may ask questions, but the answers may not be the ones one believes are correct.There's a set of beliefs, and one may question but only up to a point. When the organization will not change, it's time to move on and join another movement to your liking, or in the case of Martin Luther, start your own movement. I'm glad he did!

Eagle, thanks for the tip, I gotta read the Epistles more, especially Ephesians, gotta put on that whole armour of God. :)-->

Cowgirl, I believe that promise from God wholeheartedly.Please correct me if I'm wrong, I think what your position is is that since God requires confession before forgiveness, then you are requiring the same from those who trespass against you. Confession first, otherwise you will not forgive them. I just don't see it that way. I'm not God I'm a human being, prone to sinning and making mistakes myself, just like any other human. We are in a spiritual battle, we sin, others sin and blow it. Sometimes folks who sin against us don't see it. Sometimes they don't realize what they did, what they are doing, or even if they're wrong at all. They don't realize what hurt they've caused. They could be blind, deceived, cold, calloused, whatever. And what I'm suggesting is, you can forgive them whether they see it or not. And Research Geeks point is, that helps YOU, whether they see it or not. It's so strange that some folks use bible verses as a pretext for not forgiving others, when its so powerfully evident that God wants us to forgive others. Shaz, these ignorant condescending statements sometimes are just too much, assuming that I never got hurt myself, but I'm going to share with the folks here something that hurt me deeply years ago. I think I may have told the folks this story but I was dismissed from the Sixth Corps on March 7, 1976. March 7 was a Sunday and I asked Craig, who dismissed me that morning, if I could stay for the evening service. Admittedly I was dismissed for something that was my own fault...but, I did apologize for it, and stated it wouldn't happen again. I stayed for the nite service, then after the service he called everyone into the Ermal Owens Sunshine Room and forthwith dismissed the entire Sixth Corps. He then said anyone who wanted to recommit themselves to the Corps Program may do so by "signing the little 3 x 5 card we are handing out." At the end of the meeting, I ran up to Craig, and asked him if I may stay after all, under these circumstances? He thought it over for a few seconds, then said no, "my previous decision stands with you." Didn't matter what just occurred, didn't matter if I was very sorry and apologized, I got booted anyway.A few days later, I'm home with my mom and Dr. Wierwille calls. He convinces my mother to use the remaining money she and Dad previously paid for my corps training that year, to allocate the rest of it to a family member, who was entering the 7th Corps. She approved, so now my corps sponsorship vanished. I asked to speak to VPW and begged and pleaded with him over the phone to take me back. I apologized and said it would never happen again. His response: "no, we've gone as far as we're going to go with you." To hell with oldiesman, he's tossed in the gutter. I was devastated, heartbroken. My mother wanted me to see a shrink. My whole life and dream shattered, at 20 years old. I stayed stationery and almost motionless in my room for 3 months. Thinking about it now greatly saddens me. Never received an apology from Craig or VP for their lack of caring, hypocrisy, cold heartedness, and now that I think about it, especially now since we know of Craig's and VP's sinning themselves. But you know what, I forgave them. I will say that it took me a good 2 years to get healed from it. Asking God to help me, focusing on God's gifts in my life and how much HE's forgiven me of my sins helped me forgive others. It just works, that's all I can say. Yeah I wasn't physically raped -- but mentally, emotionally? Soul Death. Yep. But the bottom line is, forgiveness still works like a healing balm under extraordinarily trying circumstances, and one may forgive without a tad of repentence or confession from the offending party. I can't imagine holding that pain inside of me for 25 years. I am depressed now that I've dredged this up in my mind, I have to renew it. :)-->

Cowgirl, oh what a nice trick question. First, God doesn't require us to receive revelation first, before we can forgive. God doesn't require us to have to receive repentence first, before we can forgive someone. Now if I were witnessing a rape, I wouldn't walk away and forgive right then. I'd do my best to stop it. Laws even allow me to kill, to stop it, and I'd be perfectly justified. So no, I wouldn't just walk away. But that's different and a far far cry than me hearing about a rape that happened 30 years ago. I believe under those conditions, God wants me to not harbor anger, wrath, and malice, but to be forbearing, tenderhearted, and forgive. Not only is it the godly thing to do, but helps the healing process as Research Geek suggested and helps me be totally free from it and be able to move on. I believe forgiveness helps folks to move on with their lives, among other things. If you wait for a person to repent before you can forgive them, you may never get to forgive them cause the repentence may never come. And in the case of a dead person, it will never come in your lifetime. So then that gives you the justification to never forgive? Nah. We are not bound by the actions of another, before we ourselves can take godly actions.

Here's another biblical account of forgiveness of sin without a requirement of confession or repentence first: Mar 2:2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive [them], no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them. Mar 2:3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. Mar 2:4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken [it] up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Mar 2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) Mar 2:11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. Mar 2:12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

Goey, off the top of my head, there's a few scriptures that back up the idea of forgiveness without repentence being required first. Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. God didn't require our repentence first, before willing to ask Christ to die. Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved By grace we are saved, God's gift, even when we were dead in sins. Not by good works. Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. In the very same chapter you say repentence is a requirement, Jesus forgave those who were killing him, without them repenting first. Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Stephen was filled with the spirit. He asked God not to charge those who were killing him with murder. He forgave them without them repenting first. Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye. Here, the standard for forgiveness is not wait till a person repents first before you can be forbearing and forgive, but you forbear and forgive because even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. It begins with Christ forgiving you (even when you were dead in sins), leaving you free to forgive others. I'm sure there are additional examples.

Hey there's a new one, eat the crab meat but toss out the shell. Thanks, Socks.

Happy Weekend, one and all!

:)-->

Cool, where do you get all that kewl stuff?

Check out my post on the second page. That pretty much spells out where I stand on this issue, at present.

I'm getting hungry. :)-->

So then we're justified not forgiving religious leaders because Jesus didn't? That seems a tad too simplified for my taste. First, the way I see it, Jesus is Lord, da Big Cheese. He gets to tell us what to do, cause he's Lord, and cause it's best for us, whether he does it himself or not is not the point. Maybe there's a bigger reason why he never forgave some and forgave others and it seems to contradict; I don't understand it all yet, but I do know what he asks me to do and it's pretty clear.

Satori, I forgive you for falsely accusing me of laying blame elsewhere. :)-->

As a recipient of False Accusations, I forgive Rascal and all for using false accusations against me, even though she and others haven't repented, nor even admitted to using them. :)-->

Garth, this principle applies to everyone. I didn't mention anything about applying this to "only Wierwille" did I?