oldiesman

There really are only two ways to go with this. Ya either chose to be there, or ya didn't. I suppose you may say that children whose parents were in didn't have a choice. But adults must accept responsibility for their actions. That's my belief, and I'm sticking to it. Why did folks choose to be there and stay under sometimes trying circumstances? Love of and for God, fellowship, commitment, longsuffering and doctrine; I think all those things played a part.

Ok Groucho, "we" were conditioned. But, folks chose their level of conditioning. From the weakest level to the strongest level... Going to twig once a week... Going to twig twice a week... Going to twig three times a week... Going out WOW... Going out Way Corps... All different levels of conditioning of the participant's own choice, depending on their level of belief and commitment. You chose to be conditioned in football because that's what you wanted to do. Folks chose twi because that's what they wanted to do... no brainwashing, no excuses.

Groucho, so then your belief is that we refused to leave because of Pavlov-like brainwashing? Preposterous.

Well what do you expect, a la Prochaine, this is Greasespot Cafe and spirited debate, not the Oprah Winfrey show.

Belle, you misunderstood my post, you and Mr. Hammeroni, I didn't call anyone mentally disturbed. In fact, I think the opposite. Mentally disturbed people cannot reason and make decisions on their own (that was the definition of mentally disturbed I meant in that comment). If I really thought folks were mentally disturbed, I'd show empathy and compassion for that sad state of affairs. Of course you folks aren't mentally disturbed. Mentally disturbed folks wouldn't have the cognition to complain about twi all the time.

Schwaigers, you saw profit and godliness in remaining faithful in twi so you went into the Corps, a commitment of your choice. You stood on that commitment, which is admirable. This is something to be proud of, especially when you find out later that some leaders of ours weren't as honest and circumspect as we thought. I'd say commitment is a reason folks stayed a long time, as well. The commitment itself, wanting to be a faithful servant of Jesus Christ, has it's own rewards, especially in the midst of unpleasant situations.

There's no question in my mind that incidents of damage did occur. I don't think anyone would deny this. The question is, what keeps folks coming back 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years, especially folks who assert incidents of damage. Fear? I don't know. Animals do not react that way. In perilous situations, animals will retreat. They will avoid. So I don't buy the fear excuse, except perhaps in the mentally disturbed who might not be able to make decisions on their own.

My attitude has always been that twi was a place for folks who "wanted" to be there. If you didn't want to be there for some good reason, you didn't have to be. No excuses. Stop your complaining. Get out if you don't like it.But I vote for the idea that there must have been "profit" in it, otherwise why would folks stay 5-30 years? One example: my place of employment is at times, unpleasant to me. I keep coming back though. Why? It's profitable in some way. It adds something profitable to my life that otherwise I wouldn't have. I receive some benefit from it. I could go search for another job but I am satisfied with being here, even though it's not perfect by any means. Also, human beings tend not to want to be in hurtful and distressful situations, and usually back off from them if they can. Therefore most (I say most, not all) folks could have left twi much sooner than they did, if things were as bad as some assert. Just one example of twi being profitable that speaks volumes to me was Jim Doop's experience, and his return to twi after being devastated in California. I suppose he could have walked away in CA, but he came back to coordinate Maine. Now why did he do that if things were so terrible around twi? Must have been something profitable happening, no?

Sharon I bet you make great cookies and I would have been blessed to have some. They were off the wall to refuse them. You ask some good questions and I don't have answers to them. But I'd love some cookies. mmmmmmm

Steve!, just so there are no misunderstandings and false impressions repeatedly asserted: 1) I said that if someone invited me back to a fellowship, I would go and check it out. I didn't say I would remain or be a regular, and if you recall, I said if I attended a fellowship, I wouldn't give a dime. Remember that, Steve!? 2) I am pro-twi-1. that covers my experience with TWI-1. I am NOT pro-twi-2. Although I will say that in some cases, I take their side because of the obnoxious and unrelenting attacks against them. 3) My time with twi-1 wasn't all sun and roses, so you misrepresent what I've said. And regarding the women being victims, some of them were, some of them weren't. And that's really old stuff, we haven't discussed that stuff in probably over a year yet you're still thinking about those really old posts.

Hi Sharon, my my aren't we perturbed today? I don't know all the reasons why TWI has settled some claims out of court. It all depends on the complaint but I guess it's because they see it as more costly for them, both in perception and finances, if there were a trial than not. But twi settling a case doesn't mean they couldn't win, or that the ones suing have a great case. TWI most likely settles because of what they are afraid of losing. What dancing money are you talking about?

I have a better idea. Why don't some of you folks join in the Peeler lawsuit? How about contributing some money to the cause, as a silent, or not-so-silent, partner? I mean, why should only the Peelers bear all of the financial burden for this noble cause? Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

I think they settled the case and it didn't go to court. This was written about in "The Cult That Snapped."

Their claim sort of reminds me of something that might be similar to a cigarette smoker who smoked for years, who then had developed massive health problems, and the courts ruling that the massive health problems were caused by involuntary smoking and the smoker gets a huge award for smoking for years. They'd first need to prove that the smoking was not voluntary. Very very hard to prove. Next they'd have to prove damages. That their smoking was the cause of their massive illnesses. How were the Peeler's involvement involuntary? And what specifically are the Peeler's abuses/damages? Anything ongoing? Anything terminal? They have to prove these things to some pretty smart folks. My guess is, they can't.

LearnedTooLate, this is a reason why I'm against the Peelers lawsuit, as I do not agree with their premise as touching "us". That's a conclusion that's very very hard to prove. If the Peelers can prove in open court that THEIR OWN hearts and lives were destroyed by TWI who "CLAIMED" to THEM to teach THEM about God and his love for THEM, but who were only taking advantage of THEM, then more power to them. I doubt they can prove that but I wasn't there to witness their involvement in TWI or how they may have been "abused". But I do know that they can't prove abuse touching MY involvement, and I'm guessing, many folks' involvement. I won't speak for others although I know of few who were not abused and they'd say so. That's one of the problems with the whole case, this idea of some collective abuse, like we were all victims because of our involvement. The Peeler's don't speak for everyone, and should stop trying to suggest that we were abused "as a group". I'm sure twi, if need be, could bring forth more than enough witnesses who will rebut the claim of some massive, community abuse.

LearnedTooLate, it really doesn't take a lot of guts to start a lawsuit. All it takes is money. One may start a frivilous lawsuit if they have money, as well. The Allen's never went thru a trauma of a twi lawsuit. I, and I'm guessing many of us, wish they had followed thru with their original intentions to go thru with the lawsuit so that all the facts would have been exposed under oath. But, you know when you have that green stuff shoved in your face, the temptation can be overwhelming. Gosh, let's hope that's true. But that green stuff does have a sweet smell to it, doncha think? But if they decide to follow thru and not settle, and lose, THEN I'd say they will have something to complain about.

Right on, Johniam!

Actually I heard that Jack did take the class.

Oh another thing, here I go again, but who's "we" and "us"? Seems like the attorney is saying that "we", as in all ex-twi believers?, agree that we all are all likeminded in twi's negligence and the merits of Peeler's case. Don't know if that will fly.

Not exactly. My guess is that the BOT has a responsibility to be in compliance with the not-for-profit business law of Ohio, for one. How that all relates to non-members of the corporation is another stowray.

Jim Doop, since you're not hawking your book, may I please have a complimentary copy.

The Board of Trustees didn't have a fiduciary responsibility to participants. I'm not a lawyer, but I understand some of this concept, being a shareholder in a cooperative. In a cooperative, the Board of Directors have a fiduciary responsibility to all the shareholders. That means basically, when making cooperative decisions, they must always act in the shareholders best interests, and act in the shareholders best FINANCIAL best interests. But, we weren't even members in twi. We held no shares. We had no mandatory dues. As a shareholder in a cooperative, I have mandatory dues. If I don't pay, I can ultimately lose my shares. But if you "didn't pay your dues" in twi, what did you lose? Nothing, because you never owned anything to begin with. This concept also is based upon the Business Corporation Law of each state. And there's no law that I know of that mandates the owners of a church institution as owing their participants anything. It was all free-will giving. Seems reasonable that the Corps might be different, because you're paying for a specific program, and if they don't deliver the program, you have a right to your money back.

Thanks for this information David. No I don't have GPS...ha! I still love looking at old-fashioned maps. But those things are pretty incredible. How does a weekend sometime in May sound for the trip there? Ideally, if I can let you know about 2 days ahead of time, that would give me the best chance of planning on riding during the nicest weather. I hate riding in rain unless its the hot summer when it's welcome.