oldiesman

We are in total agreement on these points Bob. Thanks.

Bob, it's really not all that hard to follow the logic if one believes that twi was "the first centry church in the twentieth". Yes I believed that at one point. I believe it was a movement of God at one point, just as if it were written in the bible. Folks got saved, we loved each other, had great fellowship, breaking bread, prayers, etc., just like in the book of Acts. Why shouldn't I believe it? It's the same God. It was easy for me to see the parallels.

Oakspear, if you or anyone were in twi for years and years and now say you've nothing of value from the experience, why should anyone think anything but that you have you yourself to blame for wasting your own time and money? Maybe after the first six month or year, you would have figured out that maybe this wasn't for you?

No Steve!, I think it's YOU who doesn't understand what has been said, about multiple experiences, which includes MINE.Try reading those quotes (the ones I quoted) and try applying them to ME as you would with others you agree with. My guess is, you won't. But who knows, miracles happen.

These wise quotes are making me mad with joy. I love this thread. Lots of good opinions.

May I use that quote, Rascal?

Rascal your question opens up other broader questions, that is, why does God allow evil in the world, and should the world never have been created and made, knowing all the evil has occurred. But be that as it may, you think that in twi's case, it would have been better that it never happened because of the evil. Seems you don't see that by saying that, you're also negating all the blessings God wrought in people's lives. God did that. God. It seems to bug you to no end that there are folks who got blessed in twi. But it seems all you seem to be concerned about is how the devil worked in twi, and you magnify those things above everything else, and when someone wants to communicate something positive God did in their lives, you take extreme offense at that and wonder why their experiences aren't supplanted by the evil experiences of others. It's almost like you're giving the devil the victory and forgetting about everything God did, when all you need to do is simply let each person communicate their own experiences. If you are having a hard time with this issue, just look at the Roman Catholic church and all the evil it has been responsible for thru the ages. Yet, good things have happened as well. If you are correct, then I suppose the RC church never should have happened as well. So best I can say is I'm glad the good happened and I'm not glad that the evil happened. This is true for any church, be it RC, JW, or TWI.

Wordwolf, it seems your definition of politeness is me keeping my mouth shut and going away. That's not the way this website is suppose to work, or so I thought.It seems Toadfriend wants to lurk now, because some just won't tolerate any meaningful discussion about VPW, which also would perhaps include some of his positives. Seems all that matters to some of you are his sins. Wordwolf, you really don't want a cross section of how folks feel, do you? If you did, you wouldve just let my post speak for itself. But like Toadfriend I'll depart from this thread now and let you folks have your hate VP party.

Bob, speak for yourself and your own experiences. I'll do the same.

Well seeing as you want a cross section of things vital, here's my two cents about some positives: I thought VP was a great teacher who motivated thousands to love God and his Word. Glad he did that. Glad he was around to teach PFAL, and I thought several teaching points were superb, albeit controversial especially at one time, among them: salvation by grace, not works; speaking in tongues; born again of incorruptible seed; Jesus Christ is the Messiah; dead are dead, not alive; Christ in you, the hope of glory; God is God of love, mercy and forgiveness, not hate, wrath and revenge. There's probably more goodies. Glad he took a stand on those things. Glad he founded a ministry that at one time had a decent amount of real love to make it a pleasure to associate with.

Penta Water Taste great, less filling...

Which end?

Hi Sharon. --> I don't know. Do you remember the movie "The Rainmaker"? 'ol Starbuck said "give me $100 and I will make it rain". In the end, it rained, and he demanded $100. Who wouldn't pay it? He delivered on his promise...

You're welcome Sharon.

If it weren't for Dr. Wierwille I wouldn't be chatting with lovely folks on Greasespot Cafe.

CM: My prescription for you is the following: Take 3 deep breaths Relax Have a drink and...

Time to kick the twi man out the door.

It's like getting an operation for a chronic problem... You get an operation to have something removed or fixed. You want the pain to be gone! You get the operation, but the next couple of weeks, now you are in INTENSE pain from the cutting. But in the long run, you are better off because of it! Your pain is relieved!

You guys remember "One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest"? There's a segment where Randall P. McMurphy is talking to his fellow mental prisoners and asking who is committed? Turns out there were very few of them committed. Randall P. was committed though, but most of them were in the nuthouse voluntarily. "all you do is complain and complain and complain about this place, and then you don't have the guts to just walk out"? Come on man, what's up. And so some folks in twi are told they are prisoners. From this website. They are prisoners, but you don't tell them to walk out of their prison? How are YOU really helping them? By telling them how f-up twi is? Those who are IN and MISERABLE already know that. And so you complain, you coddle their misery. You incubate their pain, but you don't relieve it. Are you really helping them leave? Think about it. You say they are prisoners, but you give them no incentive or encouragement to leave their prison? Of course it's not easy. It's a damn hard choice! And telling twi to give them money, or change, or help them leave, it like expecting a turtle to be a cheetah. It ain't gonna happen.

Forget about twi leadership and what they think. When I was in twi and the times I was miserable because of it, I didn't care what leadership thought and didn't hang around and complain, I left. Don't listen to people who don't give a fig about you.Yes it meant doing things alone and not going to their fellowships anymore, and distruption of your life. It may mean losing your job. It may mean losing your spouse, although for some that might be a good thing. It may mean losing contact with your children. A very tough decision, but no more than a miserable marriage that breaks up. Misery may cause ulcers, what good are you to your children when you have them? It can be a hard decision, but I maintain that if you are miserable in twi, you owe it to yourself to get up and leave. God doesn't want you to be miserable. Your children will understand your decision some day if they can't now. I like the idea of the tough love concept. It toughens you up. Sort of makes you think your life through, and shows you how to decide one way or the other what you want to do with your life. Puts you in control. Sometimes the answer to a problem is just to take the damn medicine instead of rationalizing this and rationalizing that. I know its harsh, but we're in the big leagues now. And there are folks who will help you if you need it! Take a check up from the neck up... You who are miserable, rise up and make your life better. You can do it! You CAN leave The Way!

Remember the old saying we were taught in twi, it went something like: "lead, follow, or get out of the way?" It's pretty harsh, tough medicine but gets the point across. Stop complaining. No excuses. If ya don't like it, leave. Of course it's difficult and shocking to leave twi! We all went thru it here, right? So why should I expect anything less from those who are miserable there? Well I don't! There are folks who will help you, if you tired of it and want to leave. Come on, be strong, you won't regret it!