oldiesman

No.First, no one can "make" you think something you don't choose to think for yourself, unless you are narcotized, perhaps. Participants in twi-2 are responsible for their own thoughts, and think for themselves, no matter what idiotic suggestions are proposed. LCM is gone, anyway. Instead of looking at twi-2 folks as helpless victims who can't leave, I see them as Christians who've made a choice where they want to be. Might not be the choice I'd make, but it's a choice, nevertheless.

Do you remember multiple beatings from multiple people? Some have said that all the adults carried around wooden spoons all the time, then spanked any child who got out of line at any time with the spoon.

Raf and Wordwolf, I was referring to folks who were once leadership in the Bronx in the 70's and early 80's, when I lived there. They or I were not in the Bronx in 1991. In 1991, they had a twig and lived closer up by Poughkeepsie, where I live now. But they ONCE were GIANTS in the Bronx, and that says something.

PFAL RULES! Happy Weekend, one and all!

Cool, I bet there were. I also bet there were folks who LEFT, to keep their marriages together. I saw that happen to my TC's in 1989. The wifey wanted out, and the hubby followed right along, but he told me he would have stayed in twi if he weren't married. Now who was running THAT show?

Motorhead and Galen, I was just kidding before, I don't know of anyone charging anything for PFAL. Don't know if it's legal though, does anyone? I thought PFAL was copyrighted? Anyway, let me know what you find out.

Mr. Hammeroni, perhaps you might start a new thread or email me privately? Don't want to derail any further.

Motorhead, last I heard bootleg copies of PFAL were in the $500-$750 range. How much do you want to spend?

Skyrider, from what I know Don Wierwille was never a yes-man as you claim, and your claim that LCM was oblivious to Donna and Rosalie's counsel is patently false. In fact, THAT was a primary cause of a lot of the legalistic problems of TWI-2, when LCM stopped listening to Don & Howard, and instead took his counsel from Donna and Rosalie. And Donna and Rosalie have been "in charge" now for about 10 years or so. Oakspear, I have accepted that some possibly stayed around for reasons you describe, especially spouses trying to save a marriage. That makes sense. Just a figure of speech I suppose, but when I bowed out of a neighboring fellowship, they couldn't care less if I attended ever again, and the leadership in the area didn't give a fig either. I was getting on their case (all of them, from the area coordinator on down) about starting the twig on time, because the TC kept on waiting 30 minutes for late folks to arrive, before starting the meeting. And they called my complaints "legalism". This was in 1991, before the REAL legalism started. Anyway, folks that were once GIANTS in believing in the Bronx, reduced themselves to embarrassments. These folks were good folks and were not evil, but lost their brains somewhere along the line.I was miserable so I left, and everyone was happy. Can't wait to get invited back.

Why Stay When You're Miserable? Well, at least another possibility is that there are some folks who are just simply miserable, in or out of twi. These folks set their affection on things of the earth, not on things above. Which is why it might be hard for them to abandon their misery. Maybe it always was...

Oakspear, I never left twi. They left me.

There really are only two ways to go with this. Ya either chose to be there, or ya didn't. I suppose you may say that children whose parents were in didn't have a choice. But adults must accept responsibility for their actions. That's my belief, and I'm sticking to it. Why did folks choose to be there and stay under sometimes trying circumstances? Love of and for God, fellowship, commitment, longsuffering and doctrine; I think all those things played a part.

Ok Groucho, "we" were conditioned. But, folks chose their level of conditioning. From the weakest level to the strongest level... Going to twig once a week... Going to twig twice a week... Going to twig three times a week... Going out WOW... Going out Way Corps... All different levels of conditioning of the participant's own choice, depending on their level of belief and commitment. You chose to be conditioned in football because that's what you wanted to do. Folks chose twi because that's what they wanted to do... no brainwashing, no excuses.

Groucho, so then your belief is that we refused to leave because of Pavlov-like brainwashing? Preposterous.

Well what do you expect, a la Prochaine, this is Greasespot Cafe and spirited debate, not the Oprah Winfrey show.

Belle, you misunderstood my post, you and Mr. Hammeroni, I didn't call anyone mentally disturbed. In fact, I think the opposite. Mentally disturbed people cannot reason and make decisions on their own (that was the definition of mentally disturbed I meant in that comment). If I really thought folks were mentally disturbed, I'd show empathy and compassion for that sad state of affairs. Of course you folks aren't mentally disturbed. Mentally disturbed folks wouldn't have the cognition to complain about twi all the time.

Schwaigers, you saw profit and godliness in remaining faithful in twi so you went into the Corps, a commitment of your choice. You stood on that commitment, which is admirable. This is something to be proud of, especially when you find out later that some leaders of ours weren't as honest and circumspect as we thought. I'd say commitment is a reason folks stayed a long time, as well. The commitment itself, wanting to be a faithful servant of Jesus Christ, has it's own rewards, especially in the midst of unpleasant situations.

There's no question in my mind that incidents of damage did occur. I don't think anyone would deny this. The question is, what keeps folks coming back 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 years, especially folks who assert incidents of damage. Fear? I don't know. Animals do not react that way. In perilous situations, animals will retreat. They will avoid. So I don't buy the fear excuse, except perhaps in the mentally disturbed who might not be able to make decisions on their own.

My attitude has always been that twi was a place for folks who "wanted" to be there. If you didn't want to be there for some good reason, you didn't have to be. No excuses. Stop your complaining. Get out if you don't like it.But I vote for the idea that there must have been "profit" in it, otherwise why would folks stay 5-30 years? One example: my place of employment is at times, unpleasant to me. I keep coming back though. Why? It's profitable in some way. It adds something profitable to my life that otherwise I wouldn't have. I receive some benefit from it. I could go search for another job but I am satisfied with being here, even though it's not perfect by any means. Also, human beings tend not to want to be in hurtful and distressful situations, and usually back off from them if they can. Therefore most (I say most, not all) folks could have left twi much sooner than they did, if things were as bad as some assert. Just one example of twi being profitable that speaks volumes to me was Jim Doop's experience, and his return to twi after being devastated in California. I suppose he could have walked away in CA, but he came back to coordinate Maine. Now why did he do that if things were so terrible around twi? Must have been something profitable happening, no?

Sharon I bet you make great cookies and I would have been blessed to have some. They were off the wall to refuse them. You ask some good questions and I don't have answers to them. But I'd love some cookies. mmmmmmm