oldiesman

If someone asked me that question, I'd explain that God doesn't make people homosexual. I'd explain that God made Adam and Eve, and that way is God's way, but people can and do choose otherwise.Namecalling is out. Gays shouldn't be called dykes and fags, and Christians shouldn't be called bigots and homophobes.

Yes Oakspear that's pretty much the way I see it.I have a theory, perhaps correct but only you and others can tell me. Because you (and others) have been hurt and betrayed by twi, you don't want to even remember those spiritual blessings and all. Might equate to something similar to a marriage that once was a blessing, then sours, then ends in an angry bitter divorce where you just hate your former spouse. Your mind isn't on the marriage you had that was a blessing and all, your mind is on the what a creep your spouse is and you hate their guts. The "good" is meaningless since that's dead and buried in one's mind and all that's left is the evil and you're comfortable thinking that way, you're so sure that's the right way to think. It's a shame because I truly believe that those godly things of twi were blessings from God but because of the evil works of some, those blessings were supplanted by the evil works. It's nothing new, it's been happening and still happens when humans screw up and don't live up to the way we know we should. Most folks don't think of themselves as evil, but my guess is that someone else in the world does, whether justified or not -- all depends on what went down somewhere along the line to sour that relationship.

Wordwolf, I was speaking about spiritual benefits and realities, since twi was once about that....But be that as it may, a fair comparison might be if Oakspear were to buy the same stock over and over and over again for years and years, when he sees there is no profit in it from the first few months. Why buy the same stock? At some point, you say to yourself, "hey, I have to get out. It's not producing anything".

Just a passing couple of questions on your comment David. I assume you were in AA meetings?(1) How many former alcoholics do you think access endless blame to the liquor companies? Can you give a percentage? (2) How many former alcoholics do you think accept personal responsibility for their past drinking? Can you give a percentage?

We are in total agreement on these points Bob. Thanks.

Bob, it's really not all that hard to follow the logic if one believes that twi was "the first centry church in the twentieth". Yes I believed that at one point. I believe it was a movement of God at one point, just as if it were written in the bible. Folks got saved, we loved each other, had great fellowship, breaking bread, prayers, etc., just like in the book of Acts. Why shouldn't I believe it? It's the same God. It was easy for me to see the parallels.

Oakspear, if you or anyone were in twi for years and years and now say you've nothing of value from the experience, why should anyone think anything but that you have you yourself to blame for wasting your own time and money? Maybe after the first six month or year, you would have figured out that maybe this wasn't for you?

No Steve!, I think it's YOU who doesn't understand what has been said, about multiple experiences, which includes MINE.Try reading those quotes (the ones I quoted) and try applying them to ME as you would with others you agree with. My guess is, you won't. But who knows, miracles happen.

These wise quotes are making me mad with joy. I love this thread. Lots of good opinions.

May I use that quote, Rascal?

Rascal your question opens up other broader questions, that is, why does God allow evil in the world, and should the world never have been created and made, knowing all the evil has occurred. But be that as it may, you think that in twi's case, it would have been better that it never happened because of the evil. Seems you don't see that by saying that, you're also negating all the blessings God wrought in people's lives. God did that. God. It seems to bug you to no end that there are folks who got blessed in twi. But it seems all you seem to be concerned about is how the devil worked in twi, and you magnify those things above everything else, and when someone wants to communicate something positive God did in their lives, you take extreme offense at that and wonder why their experiences aren't supplanted by the evil experiences of others. It's almost like you're giving the devil the victory and forgetting about everything God did, when all you need to do is simply let each person communicate their own experiences. If you are having a hard time with this issue, just look at the Roman Catholic church and all the evil it has been responsible for thru the ages. Yet, good things have happened as well. If you are correct, then I suppose the RC church never should have happened as well. So best I can say is I'm glad the good happened and I'm not glad that the evil happened. This is true for any church, be it RC, JW, or TWI.

Wordwolf, it seems your definition of politeness is me keeping my mouth shut and going away. That's not the way this website is suppose to work, or so I thought.It seems Toadfriend wants to lurk now, because some just won't tolerate any meaningful discussion about VPW, which also would perhaps include some of his positives. Seems all that matters to some of you are his sins. Wordwolf, you really don't want a cross section of how folks feel, do you? If you did, you wouldve just let my post speak for itself. But like Toadfriend I'll depart from this thread now and let you folks have your hate VP party.

Bob, speak for yourself and your own experiences. I'll do the same.

Well seeing as you want a cross section of things vital, here's my two cents about some positives: I thought VP was a great teacher who motivated thousands to love God and his Word. Glad he did that. Glad he was around to teach PFAL, and I thought several teaching points were superb, albeit controversial especially at one time, among them: salvation by grace, not works; speaking in tongues; born again of incorruptible seed; Jesus Christ is the Messiah; dead are dead, not alive; Christ in you, the hope of glory; God is God of love, mercy and forgiveness, not hate, wrath and revenge. There's probably more goodies. Glad he took a stand on those things. Glad he founded a ministry that at one time had a decent amount of real love to make it a pleasure to associate with.

Penta Water Taste great, less filling...

Which end?

Hi Sharon. --> I don't know. Do you remember the movie "The Rainmaker"? 'ol Starbuck said "give me $100 and I will make it rain". In the end, it rained, and he demanded $100. Who wouldn't pay it? He delivered on his promise...

You're welcome Sharon.

If it weren't for Dr. Wierwille I wouldn't be chatting with lovely folks on Greasespot Cafe.

CM: My prescription for you is the following: Take 3 deep breaths Relax Have a drink and...

Time to kick the twi man out the door.

It's like getting an operation for a chronic problem... You get an operation to have something removed or fixed. You want the pain to be gone! You get the operation, but the next couple of weeks, now you are in INTENSE pain from the cutting. But in the long run, you are better off because of it! Your pain is relieved!