oldiesman

WhiteDove, wouldn't it have been great had Craig invited B.G. Leonard to speak to all of us, welcomed him as a brother in Christ, and told us that he was instrumental in VP's research?Just a little more love, wisdom and respect here and there, and poof, things may have been so different. Ahh, wishful thinking I guess. ;)-->

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Thanks so much Ted, I love your music! :)-->

Penta Water. Taste great -- less filling

YES Gifts of the Spirit-LeonardKenyon -- The Blood Covenant, The Wonderful Name of Jesus, Jesus the Healer, to name a few. YES.Also Numbers in Scripture, Witness of the Stars, Figures of Speech.

Go to now, Mr. Hammeroni.Don't ya think that lots of folks who enjoy Wierwille's books might go out and buy the works of Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard, et al.? See it in the "original"? Heck I would.

Friend Belle, being taught the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century, and saying that VPW was the SOLE SOURCE of accuracy, are two very different things. Obviously, he wasn't the sole source. I think you are drawing conclusions that you shouldn't.As far as what LCM stated in your time, most of us who are out know full well that LCM stated many harmful and vicious and erroneous things that none of us who are gone support.

Sorry Belle, I disagree.VPW learned from men of God scattered across the continent. We were told that early on. So how in the world could you or others seriously make a claim that VPW was the sole source of accurate knowledge and other Christians don't know much of anything?

Lindy, to honestly answer your question, I wouldn't have changed. I was thrilled to learn the Word of God that finally made some sense to me, and had I learned that these teachings really came from other men, I wouldn't have cared. (Actually I did know that a lot of the stuff came from other men already back then.) What was important to ME, was that it was the Word the Word the Word. I didn't care where Wierwille got it.Had B.G. Leonard taken me aside 30 years ago and said "Wierwille stole from me", I might have encouraged him to take a chill pill and be thankful that the Word of God is being taught to so many folks and he was a part of that and to thank God we all knew the truth and teaching a lot of the same things.

Um, no Wordwolf, it doesn't bother me.I suppose I have enough things going on in my life today that VPW's plagiarisms of 30 years ago are of no relevance to me at all.

Belle, that's pretty easy to explain. If God taught VPW the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century church, it could be in the available ways for VPW to learn. i.e., thru other people.Had VPW given proper written acknowledgement to other mens ideas in his books, would that act have negated his claim? I trow not. Well, there is conflicting information about this. I don't have all the answers to this. VPW could have done a lot of the research on his own, which could have been the same research someone else did, years before. That's not impossible to imagine. Then again, we do have evidence of all the men of God he learned from who were scattered across the continent. No question he learned from these men.Also, we learned in 1972 that lots of VPW's stuff was not original, as was stated in "The Way Living in Love". Somehow it seems other folks didn't realize that he got lots of his stuff from other men, but I got that idea early on and it really doesn't surprise me that he got ooodles of stuff from other men. But then Wierwille said "putting it all together so that it fit -- that was the original work." And so he's correct there. Far as I can tell, he didn't steal TWI from anyone. He founded it, put it together and made it work in his time. All this doesn't mean he didn't plagiarize, I understand that. What I'm saying is, even had he given proper written acknowledgement, it wouldn't have changed my direction or commitment. Would anyone who believed PFAL and realized much profit in it, have questioned its accuracy or profitability had they known it really came from Bullinger or Leonard or other men? I trow not. Would they have left twi and followed other ministries? Maybe, but I doubt it would have mattered to most.

I already admitted he was, and so what?Wouldn't have mattered back then, would it have? Would you have changed direction had he given proper written acknowledgement? Only matters now, cause you think it's important to point out he stole. For what? It's not gonna change my day or outlook on life. Wierwille's a thief for plagiarizing, and you are a liar for falsely accusing me of idolatry. Shame on you both. Shame shame shame on you both.

Pot calling the kettle black, Diazbro.You accuse VPW of lying, yet you lie yourself when you falsely accuse me of making VPW an idol or a God. The bible says to put away lying, so knock it off friend Diazbro. And your point is VPW was a thief?Congratulations! You win the Wierwille Was A Thief Reminder Award!

Mr. BabbieAnd so according to Mr. Babbie, VPW then plagiarized everything because he used others ideas and didn't give proper written acknowledgement. And I still say, so what? Because even had Wierwille given proper written acknowledgement in all his books, would that have caused any of us to do anything any different way back when? Would we have flocked to other ministries? Flocked to other causes? Would we have given less money to twi? Not taken PFAL, not gone WOW, not gone Corps. Gotten less committed because we saw proper written acknowledgement in the books? I trow not. But now that some want to prove that VPW was a monster, this adds to their repertoire of condemnation. Well, congratulations! And I still say, so what?

Friend Rascal you are an artist at blaming others for decisions you yourself made freely and willingly. Ya can't accuse them of holding you physically, so you accuse them of holding you mentally. It's all their fault. Talk about deception. I think you could write a book on VMP.

Craig yelling and screaming at people, and calmly training your children to obey you, are two separate issues.Big difference. Have you ever read the paper "Children Fun or Frenzy"? I don't know if they were passing that out in your time but my time got that in Christian Family & Sex. That paper talked about why the rod is biblically necessary, its proper use and function, and what the results should be.

Scripture says to trust no man, saint and sinner alike.Do you know how many times VP himself said that we should work the Word ourselves and make it our own and "don't take my word for it"? Does that even matter to you? I trow not. And he welcomed people who thought he was wrong, to leave. Jee, ever wonder why you stayed for so long? Hung around for years and years and years. Why didn't you get outatown if it was so bad? I know I know, you were an enslaved victim, couldn't make any decisions on your own, shackled and dominated at every turn by others.

More importantly, did/do they teach that parents need to love and hug their children after they spank them? If not, I think they failed. Without the love and reassurance that the parents are spanking them out of love and what's best for them, I think the whole training session is useless.

Rascal I think you are engaged in heresy.We human beings ARE of the flesh and ARE carnal. Yet, have the ability (thank God) to receive spiritual things. God made sure of that. EVEN YOU have that ability, evident works of the flesh notwithstanding...

Rascal ol' buddy, that careful study, would be what the fruit of a woman of the flesh, verses the fruit of a woman of the spirit in galations.I line up your actions of hatred, wrath, strife and heresies and I see for myself which side of the fence that lands you. I personally mistrust a woman who`s actions give every indication that she is of the flesh...as we should, if we give the admonishments written in galations any credence. Pot calling the kettle black, friend Rascal.

WG, the unrelenting accusatory mean-spirited finger-pointing mindset of some is a lot more threatening and aggressive than some animated icons. IMO. But I'll try to post gentler icons when I can. Thanks.

"Freely ye have received, freely give". Remember that one? Which was why we got involved. We received much, therefore, it was incumbent upon us to give, to help others receive what we had received. That's what commitment was all about. Otherwise, we would have walked out, like many have, and not given it a second thought. If you didn't receive God's love in the first place, you'd have no basis to stay there all that time. God's love was no mirage, it was real at one time.

You're probably right. Those warm & fuzzy days left a long long time ago, from what I hear.

At the risk of getting all warm & fuzzy, I mention the unconditionality of God's love is what made twi successful in winning people to the Lord. That love is also what motivated many of us to dedicate/sacrifice portions of our lives to the godly cause. Some of twi doctrine made us worthy before God at all times. No conditions other than biblical believing. How many times were we exhorted to read Ephesians? If you let that sink in, you got a taste of God's love, and many of us did.