oldiesman

Jkboehme, So then PFAL and other classes and teachings taught in twi were basically nothing more than repackaged paganism? Ok, please reveal what are the true doctrines of Christianity?

Mo, there wasn't any evidence that Koresh was "dangerous" or a leader of a "Dangerous Cult". Did you happen to view the film "Waco, The Rules of Engagement"? These folks were murdered by the FBI. The government had plenty of time to pick Koresh up weeks before the murders, if he was so "dangerous".

Belle, how can you be so sure?

Here's more information about government coverup of Oklahoma: Terror, Lies & Memos

And so VP's true aim and intent were to permanently destroy folks' ability to know, trust and love God?

Mark, thanks for the feedback. Well, they *could* be, if that is the only way a poor soul thinks they might get saved. Reminds me of when I was a youngster, I was living in so much fear and horror that I'd die and wouldn't go to heaven, not knowing whether I was God's child, or was good enough to eternally enter His kingdom, that I wore a cloth pendant, raising the odds that upon my death, it might matter. I remember reciting the Hail Mary over and over and over again. "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, amen". over and over and over and over .... I also remember that the Roman Catholic church has traditionally held that salvation may be attained only through observance of their sacraments. Therefore, they have set themselves apart as the only true church. Only through them, one may have a chance for salvation. But there are no guarantees!

So to sum up your post, Mark, you believe that salvation is by works?

I don't think they were similar at all. Twin towers had planes fly into them eventually causing all the destruction from the inside. Oklahoma was an outside explosion, that "supposedly" caused all the destruction of the building "from the outside".

Actions of leaders notwithstanding, any church that promotes the idea that salvation is works based (church, penance, mass, baptism, etc.) is not spiritually good. Unless they have changed, these are requirements for salvation in RC church.

On the other hand there have been many cases of pedophilia in the RC church. Youngsters required to service the priests in the name of God. And yet, folks still choose to fellowship with the RC church. And folks still choose to fellowship with twi. If that is how we will judge, then the same holds true for RC church. Let's not be hypocrites.

Doesn't the RC church do the same thing, i.e., put "fear of leaving" in folks? They did years ago, maybe they have changed. In any case, I don't automatically assume that twi folks are "afraid to leave". I leave open the possibility that they *want* to be there... just like the RC folks.

Seems pretty easy to summarize a man's life when viewed from an unmerciful, unforgiving, condemnational microscope.

That's it, thank you Excathedra. :) Gee you are more brainwashed than me. :o

This is still America. Folks are allowed to worship God how they choose, at whatever location they choose, and irrespective of a group's past. Wouldn't you agree?

There was no evidence whatever that he did. On the other hand, there was plenty of evidence (as exposed by The Rules of Engagement) that it was the FBI team that did it. Did it with CS gas. Did you watch the DVD? It's all on tape.

Nah that wasn't the verse. It was a verse that suggested that once everyone heard the word, then the Lord would return or something like that. I wish I could remember it.

That's exactly the way I feel about folks still in twi as well.

I do remember something like this, but if memory serves, it wasn't "word of the world", it was "everybody hearing the word", something like that -- and there was a verse of scripture that we used to back that up, but I can't find it right now.

A twig fellowship in every town and community.

Don't know if me getting involved is the answer, probably not. But change is still possible nevertheless. May take a long time. I do prefer to think in positive terms, rather than pray for twi's destruction. I'm reminded of these verses: Happy Weekend, one and all!

Because you are brainwashed silly.

Thanks for those examples...But I still would like to see twi succeed if changes are made. I admit I have mixed feelings about this issue. Sometimes I feel that twi should be around because who knows who they might help who needs it. On the other hand, I feel like it wouldn't hurt if everyone left and moved on, especially to the offshoots. Lots of the same good doctrinal teachings are part of the offshoots, but without the ungodly doctrines and the history of the abuse.

Hundreds and probably thousands have challenged them on the adultery issue, but were asked to leave? We learned from "The Cult That Snapped" that Ralph D. did when he asked Craig to knock it off. We know John Schoenheit made an attempt when he wrote the adultery paper, but then was fired by Chris Geer. But these incidents happened many years ago...like almost 20 years ago. Are you aware of any recent attempts? Should be made from folks who don't want to see the ministry destroyed...but from people who would like to see it change for the better. Maybe there is room for some godly change now ... I prefer to be optimistic and leave that possibility open, unless proved impossible.

Jkboehme, just because Craig was wrong about many things, doesn't mean he was wrong about *everything*. I attempt to live by the statement, "eat the fish, and spit out the bones". Anyway, most of us were out of twi for years by the time this happened, so who cares what Craig said about it? You may want to view the DVD "Waco the Rules of Engagement". Don't know if it was the same documentary you saw on television, but it leaves little doubt about what really happened. Those people and children were deliberately murdered. No mistakes. It wasn't an accident...

My apologies...I read over Ricky's posts and realize that he is no longer in, same as me; so I shouldn't have asked Ricky to do that. Somehow I thought he was still in...sorry. As far as someone like *me* doing it...i'm out of there. Ideally, it should be folks (not one but many) who have enough boldness and guts to challenge the existing doctrine on adultery and not afraid to be asked to leave, if rebuffed. If enough people do that it might cause a commotion for good. I just wish they'd invite me back :lol: