oldiesman

Several posters have accused Mike of idolatry, and I think this is blatant error and false accusations. Mike believes that VP's books are God-Breathed. That's idolatry? Idolatry is the worship of other gods. How is Mike worshipping other gods? If what Mike believes is idolatry, then perhaps those who believe the Bible is God Breathed, are idolatrous as well. Or is that called bibliolatry? Same deal tho'...worship of other gods. Just replace VP Wierwille with your favorite bible writer. Mike has strong faith in his belief, and many of us think he is in error. But idolatry? blah. I think this is quite presumptuous.

Awesome pics. Thank you.

So sorry to hear of your loss. Am praying for you.

I just received "Let Go and Let God" by Albert Cliffe. :) Haven't had a chance to read thru it yet, but there's a chapter called "There is Magic in Believing" A sentence from it reads... There's also a chapter called "The Law of Cause and Effect" I'm going to read this book but I'd say that it sounds like it was a contribution to VP's ideas about the Law of Believing.

It was devastating at the time, but I "got over it" in about 2 years or so.Was back out WOW about year after that. Didn't have to go out WOW either, just could have stayed at twig and been Joe Believer if I wanted. Come to think of it, that would have been easier. ha! I had some really good twig coordinators.

No, but I do believe that to the extent VP rightly divided the Word, that that Word was the true Word.So I suppose there isn't too much difference. Maybe semantics. "When and where we rightly divide the Word, we have the true word." That's what VP taught. Where Mike and I part company, I think, is Mike believes that VP must have rightly divided the Word in every instance. Every book of VP's is the rightly divided truth. Whereas I leave open the possibility that he could have missed the mark on things, and he did. Even if VP thought, and said that he wrote the truth, it's still open to checking and rechecking and rightly dividing and examination to see if it's really rightly divided.

I think the fact is, we really don't know whether illegalities were performed, because it was never tested in court. One person may believe an action is illegal while another person may believe it is justified. And you can put 3 laywers in a room and they may all disagree. A lot of this is opinion, and is debatable.

rev2 didn't believe that VP's books were God Breathed.

I agree with a lot of this.

Well I think most of us tried all we could. But twi's door was always open, both to come and go. But it's hard for some folks to see that, thinking of themselves as "victims" all the time. I think one of the misconceptions of "abuse" is that we "couldn't".

Sounds like PFAL. :o If this were true, we'd all still be there.

This is what is debatable.I believe and state that when he was taught the idea, or when he read about an idea, then believed it, thought it was true, and wrote about it in his own book, without making reference in the book where the idea came from, he wasn't stealing. You say it is stealing. Under that concept, you may as well say everything he ever wrote, is stealing. Because everything came from somewhere else. ****** When I first took PFAL at the one-week PFAL camp, I remember a roommate there showing me (to my then surprise) that Bullinger had 4 crosses in his bible, signifying the 4 crucified. My first thought was "gee, maybe there's really something to this stuff I'm learning, it's mapped out in that other book" My thoughts weren't "VP stole it from Bullinger." I was just happy to hear it, and that he taught it, if it was the truth.

That wouldn't be honest.I accept it is plagiarism when he copies word for word. I do not accept it is plagiarism when he teaches a concept that he had been taught from others, believes it himself, thinks its the truth, and then writes about that concept in one of his books. YOU on the other hand seem to think that every idea he got from everyone else he STOLE IT. He didn't just teach what he learned from others, no, he STOLE IT. So that's about the drift of where I'm coming from. I wonder how many other teachings he learned and taught, that you call STEALING, that really isn't. Do you really think that the majority of ex-way believers think like you do?I don't. I think only a very small minority, believe he STOLE these ideas and that's the spin we should put on it and that's the way we should think about it. It's certainly debatable. Oh btw, IF B.G. Leonard thought it was so very bad what VPW did, why didn't he sue? I don't know why, but I do know that when a person feels they are really ripped off, they sue... Vp's teaching was not a crime, far from it.

Goodness gracious. For future reference, when I use this: :lol: or something like it, it usually means its a joke, or something not to be taken literally. Krys I hope you took my comment in that light...

Would You Believe .... :lol:

Sounds like a bribe to me... :o :lol:

New place is great. Thanks guys. B)

In VP's case, he already admitted that he learned from men of God scattered across the continent.He made the point verbally numerous times, and in writing some, so it was no secret. He wasn't hiding anything by not giving proper written acknowledgment. If he wanted to hide the fact that he learned these things from other people, he wouldn't have repeated that he did learn from these people, naming them specifically, and he CERTAINLY wouldn't have had their books in the Way Bookstore for years. Although he didn't have any of B.G. Leonard's books in there... he had many others.

Hey that dude was right on! :lol:

Shaz,Those sentences that he really did plagiarize, are where he plagiarized. Yes, let's call it for what it is, where he did it. But saying he "stole" a teaching or a concept when he actually taught a concept that he believed from another source, like the 7 administrations teaching he supposedly "stole", is a false accusation, unethical, and unbecoming a Christian or anyone else. I wonder how many more of his teachings fall in this category and how many more false accusations are out there. And so I think for some people to be fully satisfied, he may well have had to footnote every paragraph he wrote, noting where he got this and that idea from. :wacko:

I agree.I think $200 was way too much and was unfair since folks also paid $40, $60, $100. I think $40.00 would have been enough for the materials and commitment end of the deal.

Oakspear that was a typo but when I read your response it had me spit coffee all over my shirt. :lol:

Mike is that a greater example of the original God-Breathed words of VP? :D I need to get one. :lol:

It is disturbing that you would think of anyone who committed themselves to WOW in that light...

Really Rascal? Well I'll be sonofagun.Were you at that event at Christ of the Ozarks? I still think of that and cringe when we did that skit on the honeymooners. I was so terrible. :(-->