oldiesman

And had folks who, instead of departing, made the commitment to stand with Craig for the movement of the Word, it would have been a credit to them, themselves. That was part of the whole point, to get folks to "move the word" rather than sit back and nag and finger point.Folks who DID make a commitment to move the Word with Craig, did so for that reason, to move the Word.

Yeah there sure were folks finger pointing and nagging back then. Then when Craig demanded they quit nagging and finger pointing, but in contrast stand with him in the movement of the Word, they declined.What do you suppose they might have been more concerned about? Continued movement of the Word, or nagging? And so Craig said, if you couldn't stop your finger pointing and nagging, you'd be better somewhere else. PFAL is not itself god breathed but it did communicate the rightly divided word in many areas of biblical teaching. And, twi was not only just about PFAL and there was more Craig was doing than just supporting PFAL alone.

Goey said: The call for loyalty and likemindedness was in light of moving the word, so yes I do believe he was standing at that point.Here is an excerpt of what he wrote in his companion letter to Staff Believers in April 14, 1989: He wasn't asking folks to stand with him selling french fries. He was asking folks to stand with him in the movement of the Word, and at that point he was prepared to move it, and he did. If they HAD spoken truth, or at least some applicable FACTS, there would have been items to investigate. But I didn't hear truth or facts...all I heard was that the BOT was carnal, worshipping other gods, and I was carnal, with no specifics.And it was very very peaceful, even joyous, not having to argue with my former twig coordinators anymore.

Nah Belle, I am serious. :) But IT'S FRIDAY happy happy happy

After 1994 I would agree. But the Word (or twi's version of) was still moving and being supported immediately after the letter was written, for about a 5-year window after.Just for fun, I took a gander at my piles of Way Memorabilia last nite, particularly from the time period of March, 1989 thru July 1991, when I departed my local twi twig. Yes, there were plenty of good things happening from the BOT on down and the word was moving and being supported, as opposed to being chopped up to pieces. I suppose it's difficult to understand if you weren't around those years, but only look at what happened after 1994 and beyond.

WhiteDove Writes: As a result of the events, I would surmise that they had to be careful to let folks back in who continued to think evil of Craig and the BOT and twi. They were very worried about future distruptions from former way grads, not standing with twi. Whispering, backbiting, evil speaking, and so forth. There was a lot of teaching in those days to us about walking away and departing from folks who think and speak evil of you. Cut out gangrene...and so forth.I would surmise then, that those folks who thought Craig and the BOT were worshipping other gods, and off the wall; those who thought others in twi were a bunch of foolish "yes men", worshipping Craig etc.;... forfeited their "right" to sit thru PFAL again, at least from twi. Don't know if that was "legal", perhaps it wasn't. But they had to be careful who they let back in at that point because of all the hard feelings. At that point, can you really blame them?

Wordwolf, I read your stuff. I moved up to Dutchess County, Poughkeepsie, from the Bronx, in 1988. So I know nothing about NYC after 1988 except that I work here. I did go to a few NYC twigs in the 80's, (of Steve B...) and his lovely wife. But no, I don't think I ever posted that about NYC.

In contrast, he was still moving the Word, and doing good things "on the Word".Craig wrote Why ignore these things? Are they all worthless? All evil? When he asked folks to stand with him, he was asking folks to stand with and support him in doing the above things. That's all.

I do remember some criticisms of folks who stayed after the letter, that we were called "yes men".I don't recall too much gossip about Craig Worship those few years following. I remember riding on the train once, and my former twig coordinator talking about the ministry developing "the statue" of Wierwille, which was that paperweight with Wierwille's face on it. Remember that? I guess we also were accused of practicing idolatry because of that. Let's all worship that paperweight. :lol: BTW, does anyone have an extra? I never got mine.

I don't belief it was, and I don't believe I said that.I think someone else said it was a hypocritical load ...

No, I don't know that.I believe at the point he wrote the letter, and the few years (maybe 5 years at most) that followed, he was concerned about moving and standing on the Word, and profit followed. Was he in fellowship with God continuously? I trow not. :lol: But were not PFAL classes still being run, WOW program, people getting blessed and healed, him moving God's word, teaching, and so forth? I am not so presumptuous to believe he was totally off the wall, all that time.

I disagree in part Mo.Craig wrote Yes he did want support. And he was saying, and I believe this, that part of supporting God and Christ also means walking with mutual love and respect likemindedness and one accord. Thinking that Craig and the BOT is off the wall and worshipping other gods doesn't fit that description, which was why a line had to be drawn.

Nobody is saying that the abuse can be justified. But, a lot of good was done as well.Both godliness and evil were happening simultaneously. And I believe both need to be considered to reach a balanced perspective that has some depth.

You didn't have to accept.You were free to leave. He was inviting you to leave. If you doubted that he was walking on the Word and moving forth with the things of God, he invited you to leave. I look at this as a call to recommit oneself, rev up the engine, ready to move, leaving the past behind. Those who couldn't or wouldn't leave the past behind, were asked to leave.

It does have problems that way.With the ministry, any ministry, I think all monies collected by the responsible parties should go to that very same group, supporting that one group. Why be duplicitous? Individual folks can send their own money to whereever they want. But being a leader in a particular group, church, ministry, cult, whatever you want to call it, responsible to collect money for that group, you really should be in full support of that group, or get out. My belief is: make up your mind who you stand with, and then take a stand, one way or the other. This is what Craig was writing, and I believe he was right on.

I beg to differ.I validate the letter on its own, without needing support from the events that followed. But when I look at those events, they were godly. Folks left who believed Craig and the BOT were worshipping other gods, or at least not "standing on the word", which got the folks who were unhappy and malcontented, out. There was, among other things, lots of peace in the fellowships that remained. No more arguing about Craig and the BOT being off the wall. Twigs were loving full of peace unity, and no legalism. PFAL classes were still being run and the word was moving. There was still a WOW program where the word was moving. Some folks were even returning, who had left in 1989. I would estimate a window of about 5 years (1989-1994) when the word was moving. I'm not saying everything was perfect, but it certainly wasn't tyrannical, at least where I was. Far from it. I was a twig coordinator too from around the end of 1989 to end of 1990 and I know there was no legalism. I can't speak for others involvement during that time, but my time right after 1989 up until I stopped going to twig was pleasant and the word was moving. But after around 1993-94, was when I think the present day false doctrines started about the excessive legalism, prying into peoples lives, mandatory ABS, genuine spiritual suspicion, word already over the world, closed ministry, homo purge, excessive meanness, so on and so forth.

I surmise because the response was an insult, prejudging that Martindale was not standing on the Word. It might be something like saying to Joe Torre (who just lost the pennant), "I will stand with you as long as you keep working to win ballgames". If you don't believe Torre wants to win ballgames, then go someplace else where you may believe in a manager who does. That was what Craig was saying. Also: Craig wrote In these places Craig is saying he is moving the Word. Why then was there the need for a wisecrack, suggesting he is not? Because they didn't believe he was standing on the Word, it's that simple.

Goey said from another thread: Sorry for the derail. I just get all warm and fuzzy and excited when I read that. :lol:

The point was people were sending money to Scotland and Argentina because they were thinking that the Board of Trustees were evil and worshipping other gods.What Craig did was basically said "this is wrong thinking, make up your mind because I am not evil and worshipping other gods, and make up your mind to stand with me or someone else". I see nothing wrong with that. Craig said "...so make up your mind whether you are going to stand with us as Staff moving God's Word or go the route that has been set in the last couple of years, which I believe has gone very sour." Yes, he is admitting that the route was sour, and it was probably his fault for blabbing his big mouth all around about POP. But, the letter is a call for unity and teamwork. It's like Joe Torre asking the Yankees to stand with him to win the world series, even if you know Torre might have been a bad manager in the past. Craig is not a child of hell, he's a born again believer who blew his responsibilities in Christ.

Goey, lots and lots of folks never heard about this stuff until the 90's, myself included. Perhaps if they did, they may have followed your example. But this has nothing to do with the letter, which was a call for unity and teamwork. Still has nothing to do with the letter.If folks wanted to leave because Craig threw a tantrum, they could have left, before or after the letter. At that point in time in which he wrote the letter, he wasn't necessarily abusive and ungodly. Additionally, do you allow that maybe God can forgive past sins of people in their life who want to make a fresh start moving the Word and being in fellowship with God and people? How do you know Craig wasn't at that point? Craig said he endeavored to heed the godly reproof and correction. If you don't believe him, that's your prerogative.

I didn't say that evils never happened out WOW, of course evils happened. What I said was, they weren't tolerated. What does that mean? Tolerating evil would mean the leadership would have to condone the same evils happening, again and again and again and again, with no reproof or correction. Someone beat the crap out of people over and over and over and over and that person got a WOW pin? Someone doing drugs over and over and over got a WOW pin? Someone that refused to work got a WOW pin? Like I said, it's news to me.

Belle, I am sorry to hear that you don't have kids and you are sad about that. If it is any consolation to you, I also have no kids and probably never will.

Try critiquing the letter according only to the time period and context it was written. Future actions are inapplicable, in my judgment. I think this letter is right on. What problems happening later, Craigs tantrums, hard meanness, and hurtful actions and screwups have nothing to do with this.

So then physical assaults, drugs, and being a bum were tolerated on the WOW field? That's news to me...

Belle you neglected to quote this part re: ABS: What do you think about twiggies abs money going to Scotland and Argentina? Honest? ethical? Fostering suspicion ya think? And most of the people advocating this were on the U.S.A. payroll. That was one of the many reasons why he had to draw the line. People needed to make a decision where they stood.