oldiesman

I have a friend who loves alcohol and he tells me that Drambuie takes good. I gotta try it. :P

Just look at the context and environment. You were in a serious training program. Designed to weed out the unsure feeble minded.

I think it was meant to toughen you up. It's the stones in the brook that make it sing. Iron sharpenth iron. What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.. :) Dealing with manipulation, builds character. :) :)

Everything you mentioned on your first post. Those things are pretty easy to understand. You know twi was tough and serious...and, the corps was a training program. What did you expect?

It certainly wasn't there in the RC church when I needed it over 30 years ago, that's for sure.

And yet, I understand everything VP and Craig was trying to convey to the trainees. Be tough. Don't let the adversary talk you out of your commitment. Your first commitment is to God, not your family. etc.

It all depends on the commitment and mind-set of the believer who is selling the house, whether it is a right thing or a wrong thing. Here's what twi might say to those who made a commitment with them: Bear in mind that making commitments to God, whether with twi or not, may include these things.

Diazbro, Is the following excerpt from PFAL, right on? Victor Paul Wierwille PFAL Part IV -- The New Birth Chapter 19 -- Born Again of Incorruptible Seed Pgs. 295-98

I think that's fine, as long as what God shows via The Comforter doesn't contradict the written revelation of the holy spirit, the Comforter, that has already been revealed. That was the beauty of much of PFAL... Much of PFAL contains established truths already revealed from The Comforter, because it contains established truths from the God Breathed Word first revealed to the holy men of God of the First Century, which truths are still being taught by men today. P.S.: Where Mike and I part company: Mike believes that all of PFAL is perfect..., God-Breathed. Whereas I believe there is room for error. So who's correct? I think it all goes back to the rightly-divided Word. When and where it is rightly divided..it is truth. When and where it is wrongly divided, it is error.

Here are a few more views that Christmas is pagan in origin: Origin of Christmas Origin of Christmas Real Story of Christmas Surprising Origin of Christmas About Christmas Christmas is Spiritual Adultery Christmas Customs-Are they Christian? Merry Christmas

Just because VP learned from many other men, doesn't guarantee one way or the other that what he learned and taught was true or false. What he taught (PFAL) should stand on its own and be believed or rejected on its own. Once again, I think you (and others) are allowing the sins of Wierwille to determine whether what he taught is true or false. I think his shortcomings are irrelevant to this discussion.

What you suggest is that we should learn only from God and Jesus, directly. Believing it in your heart, is what is most important.

Bliss, among other things said about Jesus in PFAL, is that Jesus is PERFECT. I think there is hardly any greater esteem we humans may give someone. I happen to like Belle. I just don't agree with everything she believes. I hope she takes me off ignore, because I think she should read what I write. She will learn, regardless of what I write/believe is right or wrong. I learn from her.

:lol: :lol:

I fully agree, with the exception of B.G. Leonard and J.E. Stiles. VP received many ideas from them, but unlike Bullinger and Kenyon, books by Leonard and Stiles were not sold in the Way bookstore. Was VP trying to hide these books so that folks wouldn't know VP got many ideas from Leonard and Stiles? He did mention, verbally, that he learned many good things from these folks; ... but as to why their books were not included in the bookstore, I don't know. I speculate that perhaps a reasonable explanation could be that he believed he was teaching more accurately, and didn't want a less accurate version sold in the bookstore?

The Newstates Constitution was an actual document that was written by a guy named Tugwell, financed by the Ford Foundation. That was not written by, but exposed, by Liberty Lobby... Read it for yourself: Newstates Constitution

Skyrider, I would suggest to you that just because we the believers may not have heard about Don & Howard's objections to Craig's verbal abuse, doesn't mean those objections weren't there. All it means is those objections weren't made public. I do realize that it can be frustrating not knowing what goes on behind the scenes. I learned this from being on the co-op board of my co-op, where shareholders have no idea what goes on behind closed doors in the board meeting, unless one of the board members speaks up. Most times, the board members do not share what goes on in "executive session" as it can come back to haunt them. I agree. The open communication and open free ideas of Greasespot with little censorship is wonderful. Thanks.

Victor Paul WierwilleBy The Way December 4, 1980 St. Mary's Evening Leader

Mike, my two cents: Had the Patron Saint of Aloofness left us with Dr.'s last lost teaching ONLY, without all the accusations against the BOT, and all the other subsequent gobbledygook, ... and then after THAT, had the ministry failed or split, there would be no excuse whatever. But instead of that, Geer left us with no specifics, gobbledygook, ... that unfortunately Craig (primarily) and others got deceived with. There was so much suspicion and doubt against Craig and the BOT by 1988, that when Craig did write to all the believers that we should master PFAL, folks were way too suspicious, and weren't listening. I believe Geer had a major role in that continued suspicion. Do you concur?

Please Bliss, tell him it is very important. ;) :lol: :D

Bliss, Do you know if the syllabus has a section or place saying anything about "how to get saved/born again"?

George person, here is some evidence that first century believers' priority wasn't home ownership, careers, family, etc.. Paul separated the disciples, and moved the Word with those disciples who wanted to commit themselves to that. What do you think those disciples were doing for those two years, investing in real estate?

Well I suppose a video clip of Craig himself would suffice. :P But seriously, if someone, anyone, quotes something published by twi, showing that SIT is a requirement for salvation, I will believe twi changed their teaching regarding salvation.

Folks' individual notes don't prove what twi taught, ... all it proves is one's own perception, on what was taught. Perceptions may differ from person to person. I would still like to see, from Craig's book "Way of Abundance" or other written document from Craig, what he wrote about "how to get saved/ born again." Folks who took his class should be able to provide this please.

This would be a very interesting study and comparison. What is true Christianity, from the perspective of the first century church, and how was that applied in twi? Were the first century church believers in the Book of Acts primarily concerned about their earthly families, home ownership, and careers? Or were they primarily concerned about moving the Word, fellowshipping with like-minded believers, moving the Word, witnessing, believing the time is short, moving the Word, getting folks born again and sharing the truth, moving the Word, etc. etc. Point is, if true Christianity is moving the Word over the world, and the primary duty of Christians is to be ambassadors for Christ, then maybe we weren't so wrong in twi to think about moving the Word all the time and forsaking these earthly things? After all, I don't think the word would have moved nearly so fast and far if folks' primary concern was home ownership, spending time with family/relatives, putting your career first, etc. I'm not saying any of these things are not good things to do if that's what one wants to do. I just like to remind myself that things done in twi weren't evil because some earthly pleasures were put off. It may be a good thing for folks who are regretting their twi experience to be reminded of some of these things. Building your house upon "the Rock" doesn't necessarily mean home ownership.