oldiesman

No better than an animal biologically, yes, because the natural man of body and soul is spiritually dead. But I still have a problem with twi supposedly teaching that someone is "not considered to be born again", when the teaching was so clear on how to get born again. I do not have a copy of "Way of Abundance & Power" and do not wish to buy a copy just to prove my point, but if anyone wants to check their copy and quote what Craig wrote about "how to get born again/saved", it would be helpful here. I would be flabbergasted, stunned, if he wrote something demonstrably different than what I remember VP teaching, which is referenced below: Victor Paul WierwillePower for Abundant Living Book Part IV -- The New Birth Chapter 19 -- Born Again of Incorruptible Seed Pgs. 295-98 I also have a pic from the syllabus that I can upload tomorrow.

Oh Belle, you know I'm right on this. TWI taught that one couldn't really "know for sure" that they are saved unless they SIT. It is the proof in the senses realm; NOT that they ARE NOT saved. As you know, VP taught in PFAL that folks can be born again, and not SIT. Remember the account of Apollos getting the folks born again (Acts 19:1-6), but since they didn't know anything about SIT, they didn't SIT. Then Paul came in and layed hands, taught about SIT, and they SIT? VP taught that in PFAL.

Gee, I didn't know that. :oBet they can teach Jkboehme a thing or two. ;) That was NEVER implied. Liar liar pants on fire.

Belle, you are speaking to me! Oh Belle. Aaw, you know what the Word says. Here's one: Who do you believe? Jkboehme, or Jesus?

How about a biblical perspective?

So then may we assume that you are a trinitarian, Jkboehme? Sunnyfla, Thanks for your response. I will consider what you have written here. I am considering getting lightly involved with an offshoot and I hear what you're saying.

Welcome Thin Lizzy. I wasn't sure about what you said about "still being in The Way"; are you in or out? Anyway, hope you stick around and share. Oakspear, did you take your class at Virginia Beach? me too. :P

Thanks for sharing Jim. I never had a problem with believing that serving in twi was the same as serving God and Christ. That's because I always believed that twi was (at one time) like "the first century church in the twentieth", teaching biblical truths, profitable fellowships and such, and believing that we as twi folks are the body of Christ...we as participants as members of that one body. Also I never allowed the sins of the big shots to corrupt that belief, and hope it stays that way. I believe God rescued me and brought me into His Kingdom by way of twi. But that is past. Right now, I am considering some lite participation with one of the offshoots... we'll see what happens. :)

Morgan, I think the question of knowing what ones true self is in light of their possible Christian beliefs is very relevant to this thread. You may disagree, and that's fine. But bear in mind, this is a public forum, and therefore open to varying opinions. If you and Belle want to have a private meeting excluding others, go right ahead.

SunnyFla, In spite of what some folks might believe, I am able to read small print :D. Thanks for sharing your experiences. You describe the offshoots you attended as the same beliefs as twi, but not all the hype and legalism. Very layed back and super nice. Sounds pretty good, but then you said you were not going to get sucked up in that "way of thinking again?" If you wish to elaborate what "way of thinking" you mean, feel free.

Belle, what do you think of the statement that for a Christian, the "real you" is the new man, Christ in you? Bogus?

Jkboehme, can you please use larger print, I can't see. From 1975 to 1991, some 16 years, I went to twig approximately once a week, with other sporadic twi events other times. But that's approx. 2 hours out of 168 hours per week, to get a dose of your so-called covert packaged persuasion, that according to you, was supposed to brainwash my neuro transmitters. I don't know what you define as covert packaged persuasion, but I think you "have some explaining to do". I thought the twigs I attended were excellent and godly. Others folks of different beliefs and religions might disagree, but those were my beliefs, and we are still free in this country to worship God how we choose. I believed what God wanted me to learn from the bible, and nothing covert about it. The twig coordinators were excellent too... The bible speaks of thought reform, a large part of your attempted condemnation is what a Christian is asked to do with their own mind, to become more Christ-like. Here's just one verse: Your opinion that any thought reform we experienced in twi was "non-consented" by folks is another opinion of yours that is unproven, and begs much explanation. And, you still haven't answered my other questions.

Ah Rascal, my carnal pleasures ...

I think it's an interesting discussion for folks, deciding what their true self should be. Reminds me of a couple of John Lynn's books, "Will the Real You Please Stand Up" and, "Will The Real You Please Remain Standing"... We learned in twi that the "real you" is the Christ in you. Not the "old man" and his ways. And, everything to get your mind in alignment and harmony with "the real you", the Christ in you, the new man, is a godly endeavor. So I think it all goes back to the essential question...what a person decides for themself, is really them. Here are a couple of verses to consider:

Jkboehme, You didn't answer my previous question about what the doctrines of true Christianity were. Since you labelled twi doctrines as repackaged paganism, i.e the counterfeit, I thought you might share with the uneducated, what the genuine is. Do you believe Christian doctrine at all? How about the offshoots? Does your stuff apply to them too? I really need to know before I visit John Lynn, to guard against a possible attempted onslaught of neurological damage.

Gee, what's up with this thread? I thought the zealous finger pointing condemnations were reserved exclusively for Vicktor Fuhrer and BOT? Anyway, don't you know that Tom J. snapped somewhere along the way? That's riiiiiiight Before TWI, he was gentle as a wimp cat. But because of twi's strategically designed epidemic of synthetically pseudomystic procilvity for harmful cultic personality changes, that's what happened to Tom ol' boy. He was brainwashed, hypnotized, his own self destroyed in favor of being a bizarre heremetic parasitic Furhrer automoton, scans of his brain must show the biochemical changes by cultic packaged persuasion, his stinkin' injuriously psychologically exploited neurotransmitters may be disgusting to YOU: Just remember, he was not responsible for his actions. He was brainwashed, hypnotized, his own self destroyed with the repackaged paganism of the homeletic's master. Show some mercy, will ya? The extent of this damage is deep.

Jkboehme, A question: Does your stuff apply to the offshoots, as well? Just got a letter from STFI (CES), informing me that John Lynn will be in my territory on December 14, for a teaching, in a fellowship. I was thinking of going, but geeze, seeing as you spoke about the psychological dangers of twi doctrines, many of which STFI still believes: mental injuries accompanied with all this, thought reform, group think, brainwashing by a pseudo-spiritual counterfeit entrepreneur, psychic numbing depersonalization in favor of the group, being made to feel inferior, repression of personal beliefs, etc etc. I'm afraid of being hynotized with repackaged paganism of Pavlovian learning, all over again...

Ummm, speaking of broken records? .... Jkboehme, Why not put every response of yours on ALL of the threads, that way you will be assured everyone will see each one, no matter what thread someone might stray in at a particular moment. :)

Apples and oranges. Even though the Davidians thought they were doing God's Will, whether they were or weren't, they still didn't violate any laws. In contrast, murdering babies (mayans) and humans (al Kaida) are violations of law. Why aren't you concerned about the Davidian female teenagers being MURDERED by the FBI? All you seem to care about is Koresh having sex with them. :blink:

Yeah, but I'm really only just one of many variable tunes here at the Spot ... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Mo, the purpose of the ATF seige was publicity; had nothing to do with sexual acts. Branch Davidians were also gun dealers... and that time, and in the Clinton Administration, the ATF was very anti-gun, and they wanted some major anti-gun publicity. If you viewed the film, you would know all this. This wasn't sicko logic to the Davidians. That's a major reason why it wasn't a crime .... there was no criminal "intent". In contrast, there was criminal intent on the part of the FBI murderers.

Penguin, What you describe may not be much different than Roman Catholics, and other religions. And so I prefer to let folks decide for themselves what religion they wish to participate in, without condemnation. I prefer not to paint most in twi with a broad brush, that they are unhappy, paralyzed, full of fear, want to get out, can't get out, yada yada yada... Don't you realize this is insulting to people? Let folks choose what church they want, and then let them live with the blessings/consequences of their own choosing. ;)

Here's a site that says parental consent for marriage in Texas is 14 for male, 13 for female: Texas Parental Consent Even so, back in 1993, it was no crime. They interviewed the sheriff of that county, have him on tape, saying they committed no crime. If you had watched the film, you would know this. No, it wasn't. And kindly watch the namecalling.

This wasn't statutory rape, bigamy, or betrayal of authority. This was a group of people who carried out their religious beliefs, openly, who violated no laws. By the way, the FBI seige had nothing to do with the Branch Davidian sexual beliefs. That was used later (their sexual beliefs) to create sympathy for the FBI murderers. Just like folks seem to be using the Branch Davidian sexual beliefs now as rationale to justify murder. "no big deal"...they were nuts anyway. In the state of Texas men/women may get married at the age of 14, with parental consent. Is the state of Texas all a bunch of statutory rapists in to allow that? How dare they?

Belle, the context is Lamsa... Relax. :D