oldiesman

No question about it, I think they were there to sign up as many folks for PFAL as possible, and they knew it. Just the same as the purpose of the WOW program, to sign up as many folks to PFAL as possible. Was that manipulation? as in "unbeknownst to them"..? How can it be, when you know exactly what you are there for? We all knew why we were in the various programs we were in and what the purposes were. Fast forward 30 years later... NOW, some think we were manipulated, because now, PFAL stinks, to some. But back then, PFAL was the accuracy of God's Word and we wanted to share it with anybody and everybody who would listen, because we literally believed that God wanted everyone to hear it. And so I think, it isn't the recruitment tools that are REALLY the issue, it is whether or not PFAL was promoting the rightly divided Word of God. If it was, damn straight I'm going to try to sign up as many folks as possible!

Diazbro Have a great weekend. And Have one on me:

I have a friend who loves alcohol and he tells me that Drambuie takes good. I gotta try it. :P

Just look at the context and environment. You were in a serious training program. Designed to weed out the unsure feeble minded.

I think it was meant to toughen you up. It's the stones in the brook that make it sing. Iron sharpenth iron. What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.. :) Dealing with manipulation, builds character. :) :)

Everything you mentioned on your first post. Those things are pretty easy to understand. You know twi was tough and serious...and, the corps was a training program. What did you expect?

It certainly wasn't there in the RC church when I needed it over 30 years ago, that's for sure.

And yet, I understand everything VP and Craig was trying to convey to the trainees. Be tough. Don't let the adversary talk you out of your commitment. Your first commitment is to God, not your family. etc.

It all depends on the commitment and mind-set of the believer who is selling the house, whether it is a right thing or a wrong thing. Here's what twi might say to those who made a commitment with them: Bear in mind that making commitments to God, whether with twi or not, may include these things.

Diazbro, Is the following excerpt from PFAL, right on? Victor Paul Wierwille PFAL Part IV -- The New Birth Chapter 19 -- Born Again of Incorruptible Seed Pgs. 295-98

I think that's fine, as long as what God shows via The Comforter doesn't contradict the written revelation of the holy spirit, the Comforter, that has already been revealed. That was the beauty of much of PFAL... Much of PFAL contains established truths already revealed from The Comforter, because it contains established truths from the God Breathed Word first revealed to the holy men of God of the First Century, which truths are still being taught by men today. P.S.: Where Mike and I part company: Mike believes that all of PFAL is perfect..., God-Breathed. Whereas I believe there is room for error. So who's correct? I think it all goes back to the rightly-divided Word. When and where it is rightly divided..it is truth. When and where it is wrongly divided, it is error.

Here are a few more views that Christmas is pagan in origin: Origin of Christmas Origin of Christmas Real Story of Christmas Surprising Origin of Christmas About Christmas Christmas is Spiritual Adultery Christmas Customs-Are they Christian? Merry Christmas

Just because VP learned from many other men, doesn't guarantee one way or the other that what he learned and taught was true or false. What he taught (PFAL) should stand on its own and be believed or rejected on its own. Once again, I think you (and others) are allowing the sins of Wierwille to determine whether what he taught is true or false. I think his shortcomings are irrelevant to this discussion.

What you suggest is that we should learn only from God and Jesus, directly. Believing it in your heart, is what is most important.

Bliss, among other things said about Jesus in PFAL, is that Jesus is PERFECT. I think there is hardly any greater esteem we humans may give someone. I happen to like Belle. I just don't agree with everything she believes. I hope she takes me off ignore, because I think she should read what I write. She will learn, regardless of what I write/believe is right or wrong. I learn from her.

:lol: :lol:

I fully agree, with the exception of B.G. Leonard and J.E. Stiles. VP received many ideas from them, but unlike Bullinger and Kenyon, books by Leonard and Stiles were not sold in the Way bookstore. Was VP trying to hide these books so that folks wouldn't know VP got many ideas from Leonard and Stiles? He did mention, verbally, that he learned many good things from these folks; ... but as to why their books were not included in the bookstore, I don't know. I speculate that perhaps a reasonable explanation could be that he believed he was teaching more accurately, and didn't want a less accurate version sold in the bookstore?

The Newstates Constitution was an actual document that was written by a guy named Tugwell, financed by the Ford Foundation. That was not written by, but exposed, by Liberty Lobby... Read it for yourself: Newstates Constitution

Skyrider, I would suggest to you that just because we the believers may not have heard about Don & Howard's objections to Craig's verbal abuse, doesn't mean those objections weren't there. All it means is those objections weren't made public. I do realize that it can be frustrating not knowing what goes on behind the scenes. I learned this from being on the co-op board of my co-op, where shareholders have no idea what goes on behind closed doors in the board meeting, unless one of the board members speaks up. Most times, the board members do not share what goes on in "executive session" as it can come back to haunt them. I agree. The open communication and open free ideas of Greasespot with little censorship is wonderful. Thanks.

Victor Paul WierwilleBy The Way December 4, 1980 St. Mary's Evening Leader

Mike, my two cents: Had the Patron Saint of Aloofness left us with Dr.'s last lost teaching ONLY, without all the accusations against the BOT, and all the other subsequent gobbledygook, ... and then after THAT, had the ministry failed or split, there would be no excuse whatever. But instead of that, Geer left us with no specifics, gobbledygook, ... that unfortunately Craig (primarily) and others got deceived with. There was so much suspicion and doubt against Craig and the BOT by 1988, that when Craig did write to all the believers that we should master PFAL, folks were way too suspicious, and weren't listening. I believe Geer had a major role in that continued suspicion. Do you concur?

Please Bliss, tell him it is very important. ;) :lol: :D

Bliss, Do you know if the syllabus has a section or place saying anything about "how to get saved/born again"?

George person, here is some evidence that first century believers' priority wasn't home ownership, careers, family, etc.. Paul separated the disciples, and moved the Word with those disciples who wanted to commit themselves to that. What do you think those disciples were doing for those two years, investing in real estate?

Well I suppose a video clip of Craig himself would suffice. :P But seriously, if someone, anyone, quotes something published by twi, showing that SIT is a requirement for salvation, I will believe twi changed their teaching regarding salvation.