oldiesman

What I said to Groucho goes for you too Wordwolf. Shame on you for judging folks negatively who, wanting to move the Word and bless folks, have them come to a greater knowledge of God and the bible than before, fellowshipping, dedicating some of their lives to that calling, etc. I didn't spend two years of my life out WOW, and 17 years in twi, only to hear insults and false accusations that I was involved in exploitation and shaking people down for money. If you guys want to speak of your experiences, go right ahead, but speak for yourself. *snort*

Speak for yourself Groucho. You must think you are God Himself, knowing that folks got involved in twi to shake people down for money and exploit them? Have you no shame, condemning folks you don't even know? Your wholesale false accusations are disgusting, as usual.

Evan and Mark, Whether one agrees or disagrees with VP's teaching on "how to get born again" is irrelevant to what we have been discussing. However I am always interested in hearing other views on salvation, perhaps that is something you may want to start in the doctrinal section? My two requests are still on the table: (1) Would someone who has taken "Way of Abundance and Power" please let me know if Craig wrote anything in the syllabus, on "how to get born again"? (2) If something is there, please share it?

Yeah Allan, please be more sweet and loving. Like Rascal. *cough*

Women had lots of power in twi. A dirty little secret that most don't fess up to, especially Rascal who must always portray herself as a Helpless Victim, so folks may relate to her stories.

Twi's rationale for "moving the Word" as I saw it, is the following:

That's not it. Yes, Session 8 is a great session. But there's so much more. Perhaps it is appropriate to summarize each Session, along with the collateral readings. As you can see, there are lots of goodies there. Session 1 The Greatest Secret in the World -- What's Available Keys to Receive Anything From God The Law of Believing - Negative and Positive (Mar. 3: 1-5) Two Kinds of Unbelief Session 2 The God Breathed Word Figures of Speech Profitable for Doctrine, Reproof, Correction Purpose of the Word/How We Got the Word Session 3 The Integrity of the Word Logos: The Living Word/The Prevailing Word The Word and the Workman (II Tim 2:15), Receive Retain Release Keys to the Word's Interpretation, Chapters Verses Commas Devoid of Authority Session 4 No Private Interpretation/How Scripture Interprets Itself The Cry of Triumph Scripture Buildup: Four Crucified with Jesus In the Context: Are the Dead Alive Now? (Matt: 13:24, Rev. 1:12) Session 5 Previous Usage: Paul's Thorn in the Flesh Biblical Truths We Must Adhere To: To Whom Addressed The Church: Bride-Body The Great Mystery: Christ in You, The Hope of Glory! Biblical Truths We Must Adhere To: Administration Defined Session 6 Battle of the Senses Body Soul & Spirit; Soul Nephesh Chai Created: Three Creations and Fall of Satan After It's Kind: Seed Is In Itself, Mendel's Law Five Steps to the Fall of Adam and Eve Session 7 Original Sin: High Treason How Satan Is God of this World Free Will: Five Senses vs. Spiritual Faith, Types of Faith; Faith vs. Believing Hebrews 2:14; Incorruptible Seed; How To Get Born Again Session 8 Eternal Life-The Greatest Gift Confessing the Saviour from Sin; Standing/State Confession unto Salvation; Confession unto Fellowship Two Kinds of Knowledge; Putting on the Renewed Mind; How to Renew Your Mind; Your Sonship Rights Session 9 Five Gift Ministries in the Church Gift, Manifestation, Fruit Usage of Pneuma Hagion Nine Manifestations by Groups Gift=Ability What is the Gift? Dunamis, Energemata, Exousia, Dechomai, Lambano Who Received on Pentecost? Temple or Upper Room? Greatest Thing God Has Done Session 10 The Proof Difference between Phenomenon/Miracle Peter's First Sermon What Did Simon See? Conversion of Paul Peter and Cornelius: God is No Respecter of Persons Session 11 Acts 19: Apollos and Paul I Cor. 12: 1-7 (For Profit) I Cor. 12:7ff -- I Cor. 13 I Cor. 14 Session 12 Speaking in Tongues, What it is Not-What It Is How To Speak In Tongues Ye Shall Lambano Collateral Readings Are You Limiting God? The Law of Believing Christians Should Be Prosperous How To Avoid Being A Failure The Palms of God Your Power of Attorney Job: From Victim to Victor Study Be Diligent Who is the Word? The Third Heaven and Earth Of Human Sacrifice The Lord's Brethren The Day Jesus Christ Died Did Jesus Keep The Passover? Simon of Cyrene and the Cross Christ Bore The Four Crucified with Jesus The Cry of Triumph Pauls Thorn in the Flesh Ekklesia: Bride or Body? The High Calling Viewpoints: God's - Man's God Is Our Sufficiency We Have This Treasure in Earthen Vessels The Church: The Great Mystery Revealed The Walk of Youth The Bondage of the Sabbath Day In the Beginning Body, Soul, Spirit The Unqualified Commitment How to Be a Christian Sons of God: Adoption and Birth The Genealogy of Jesus Christ The Conception of Jesus Christ Release From Your Prisons The Synchronized Life The Counsel of the Lord God Rescued Us You Are Righteous Now The Broken Body and Shed Blood Complete in Him As He Is So Are We Key to Power Fellowship Is The Secret The Believer's Responsibility The Christian's Joy and Crown Baptism When Judas Hanged Himself Receiving The Holy Spirit Today What is True Worship Filled to Overflowing Why Division? The First Century Church in the Twentieth The Energy Of Your Conviction The Joy of Our Hearts Speaking in Tongues How To Speak in Tongues A Rest to God's People God's Dwelling Place The Final Victory

Lifted, There was pressure in twi programs, no question about it; ... but folks were not obligated to participate in those programs. Pressure, as I see it, challenges folks to become better and stronger. My last twi program was WOW in 1979-80. From August 1980 thru August 1991, around 11 years in twi, there was some light pressure, but certainly nothing I or the average person couldn't handle. Twig fellowship once a week, plus every now and then attending a few classes, seminars, weekends in the word. And only when I wanted to. If I didn't want to attend something, I didn't. I didn't allow ANYONE to control my life. Month long motorcycle trip with VP & Mrs., in June of 1984, was one of the greatest weeks of my life. But I think what "Take A Stand" did was to try to get folks to the point of making a decision, either for or against. I see nothing wrong with that;...heck I did that myself when I went out WOW twice.

VP said "you can't stop people from kicking you, but you determine which direction you will go" You determined. You could have directed yourself out the door, at any time, if you preferred.

Something so basic and fundamental as "how to get born again", was/is clearly understood. And if by some slim chance there was a change from VP's teaching only to be believed by the "inner sanctum", there are plenty of ex- inner sanctum folks who, given the chance, would have exposed twi's "real" so-called teaching on "how to get born again", if there ever was one that was different than VP's. Twi always taught that we are saved by grace, via adherence to Romans 10:9, not of works. I am willing to believe otherwise, only if I see written proof from twi that they changed that teaching.

There were so many kind and caring folks in twi (as stated by many folks on these threads including you) I can't imagine why you would think that folks wouldn't be concerned if you had a problem and needed help. Take a Stand were folks who wanted to sign up folks for the class, for the glory of God, so folks who wanted it could come to the knowledge of the truth. That sounds caring to me. And I'm sure if someone they signed up wanted to share a problem, Take a Stand were there to help if they could.

Twi's teaching on "how to get born again" is very clear, and again referenced below. If Craig's teaching on "how to get born again" differs from VP's teaching referenced below, please provide. Victor Paul WierwillePFAL Part IV -- The New Birth Chapter 19 -- Born Again of Incorruptible Seed Pgs. 295-98

Mike, I do admit it's a bit annoying, but what can you do? Everyone has a right to express their opinion on this forum, and no posts are above scrutiny. Relax. Sit back and have one on me (sip it slow..mmm)

Mike, please let all hell break loose, by all means. Just think, this has the potential to be another exciting mega-thread. I want to be entertained. :D

I really wouldn't know. VP said we should master PFAL, and so I suppose VP should also have told us exactly what that meant, how to do it, and at what point the mastery was accomplished? I thought that perhaps God told YOU this Mike...that was one reason why I asked.

Good point Mike. Same goes for King Solomon. It appears hard for some folks to believe that God can communicate his Word to folks who at times can be so idolatrously sinful and harmful to others.

And don't forget King Solomon...

More plagiarism comments: My response: VP did credit the sources for his information, verbally.If he was trying to hide his sources, why say anything about them, at all? BUT, here's a quote from The Way Living in Love, 1972, long before his alleged plagiarism was ever exposed: Here VP, in 1972, says directly that lots of the stuff is NOT ORIGINAL!Golly, I'm trying to believe that VP plagiarized some, but when I see the dictionary definitions and compare them with the facts of VP's alleged plagiarism, I get all confused. The profit went way way beyond only personal, for him only. Even financially, the financial "profit" went to twi, not his own personal bank account.

Mike, Because if it is available for me to master PFAL, I want to know exactly when I have attained that mastery. Saying that we should master PFAL, but not being able to tell when we have actually attained that mastery, is like Chris Geer saying we need to "get back on the Word." Too aloof. Here's an athletic example: If I were to study Karate, I become a "Master" when I attain the 4th degree Black Belt. At that level, I am qualified to teach it. I am considered a Master at Karate. When does one become a Master at PFAL?

Skyrider, My dismissal had to do with me breaking one of the ten commandments (I'm not gonna say which one :D ) while at the same time being very young (19 yrs old), which was supposed worked against my ( at that time ) present involvement in the Corps. I was invited back, when I "got it together". This has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, which is Craig ranting, yelling, or the so-called manipulation/intimidation you speak of. I do not believe I was manipulated or intimidated in any way. I considered most of those rants a challenge to "get busy" as Craig would put it.

Mike, if what you say is true, that folks need to master PFAL: how does one go about mastering it, and how does one KNOW they have actually done it?

I think our definitions of plagiarism vary, but I do think he plagiarized some.Some believe (I believe erroneously) that plagiarism is not noting or citing in writing, where someone got every single specific thought, idea or concept. Others believe it is a word for word extraction of specific written text, without giving proper written acknowledgement where the word for word extraction came from. I believe the latter is correct. If you believe as I do, then VP did plagiarize some paragraphs. WHY he didn't simply cite those few paragraphs he plagiarized, I don't know.

Thanks Krys, but I still don't think some folks get what I'm saying. Reminds me of when VP said something about "you can't stop people from kicking you, but you determine which direction you will go". Taken as a challenge, some of these rants by Craig can possibly benefit the corps volunteer ... toughen them up. And speaking from a "spiritual sponsor" point of view, I wouldn't want to be contributing to a weak corps volunteer who may easily get talked out of their commitment by an earthly family member ... that'd be a waste of time and money. So maybe Craig wasn't so wrong after all.