oldiesman

Well Gee, if they weren't concerned about the money, why did they settle? Golly, they had many many believers willing to help out financially. I just think going forth with the lawsuit would have been the greater good. Also, there's something about reading testimony under the scrutiny of cross examination that gets to the truth better.

*snort* God in his foreknowledge knew that all these men were BIG sinners, yet he worked with them anyway. Their sins did not disqualify them from God working with them, as per your opinion.

:D :lol: :D

*snort* Saul and David were murderers. Solomon was an idolatrous sex addict. Apparently their sins did not disqualify them, so I surmise VP's sins did not disqualify him from teaching God's Word. And judging from the response, many many folks were blessed from God and thankful for their involvement in twi, despite Viervilles sins. Happy Ho Ho Relo Countdown -- 4 days :D

Then simply prove it on this topic we are discussing on getting born again. Show us when and where in twi it was even SAID, let alone in WRITING, that speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation. I'm even willing to bet big bucks that it was never even STATED BY TWI, by ACCIDENT,...let alone TAUGHT in WRITING anywhere in TWI. That is how sure I am. TWI taught that salvation comes with belief in Jesus Christ, by GRACE we are saved, not of works lest any man should boast. TWI taught we are born again of incorruptible seed via Romans 10:9. Happy Ho Ho Relo Countdown -- 4 days away. :D

dooj, I cannot say why and I cannot ask him or speak for him, he's dead. All I know is, from the evidence we have, I believe he communicated that his stuff was not original and he didn't try to palm this stuff off as "his own." It was stated in the collaterals that VP "learned from men of God scattered across the continent" He said himself that his stuff wasn't original, in 1972. And please honestly ask yourself something: even if he had directly listed all of his sources in all his books; ... would that have changed anything? your believing or commitment at the time? It wouldn't have mattered one iota to me whether others were listed as sources. I probably would have thanked them as well.

Go to now Oakspear. I haven't derailed in ages. :P Come on guys, I'm still waiting for an answer to my two questions. Would someone who has taken Way of Abundance PLEASE come forward and report whether or not Craig taught anything in there on "how to get born again"? If so, PLEASE quote it? Make my day, before Happy Ho Ho Relo :D

Say what?All they apparently WON was the settlement money. TWI is still around. But look at all the folks who contributed, thousands of dollars, folks who WANTED to see a trial, to see the truth be exposed before a court of law. Went toe-to-toe? If they were so brave, why did they settle? Wouldn't it have served the purposes of exposing truth much much more had they went ahead with the lawsuit? THAT would have been brave, and going toe-to-toe with the bot.

dmiller, sorry but I am going to have to disagree in part with you, and I base my belief on the following: Victor Paul Wierwille, 1972The Way Living In Love Elena Whiteside page 209 The previous statement by VP disproves that he "passed it off as his own." In 1972 he said it wasn't original; ... if you don't believe he said that, there it is, right before your eyes. He deserves credit for not passing it off as his own, but rather saying "lots of the stuff I teach is not original." If he was trying to hide something, and pass off all of this as his own, he would not have made the previous statement, nor have other authors' books, from whence he learned, selling in the Way Bookstore for all to read. The previous statement also would disprove that PFAL is God-Breathed, since he received the content from other sources ... and not by revelation.

I would imagine it would be a mixed bag, just like it is for lots of folks today. Many are thankful for their involvement, but appalled at Wierwille's & others sins. Best advice I would offer is to eat the fish, and spit out the bones.

Well that is your spin. Others have said they were thankful for their twi involvement, myself included.

What does all that have to do with the topic we are discussing?

If what you say is true, why would VP teach on "how to get born again"? You are sidestepping the obvious.

The thought reform processes we were subjected to in twi were entirely consensual. For instance, an example of consensual godly submission, which may lead to thought reform, might be the following: Folks decided to do that, when folks decided to do the Word. It was an individual decision based upon knowledge and religious belief. Those who did not give their consent, soon exited, whether it was a twi program, or simple twig. TWI, right or wrong, was and is based upon consent of the individual. There are exceptions: children, mentally ill folks, and those who were narcotized. Non-consented thought reform sounds to me like people being kidnapped and brainwashed in an environment that they cannot escape from. When I read Jkboehme's "stuff", this is the impression I get.

Skyrider, it is my humble opinion that you are way too absorbed in Internet Spin. :D

I would bet big money that twi1, twi2, twi3, NEVER taught that speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation. Never never never never never never never never never never never never. Any takers? I cannot. I cannot accept that there are ex-twi folks believing that TWI taught that speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation. The fact that there are ignorant folks out there teaching that TWI taught speaking in tongues is a requirement for salvation is bad enough.... But for ex-twi folks to believe this too? No way Jose. I think some folks are either lying, mentally ill, or too self absorbed in Internet Spin.

Victim Mentality Propaganda The essence of JKboehme's whole concept. You were/are a brainwashed, Helpless Victim. You didn't make free-will decisions. Everything you did in twi was due to covert packaged persuasion. And the beat goes on...

Sounds to me like you are getting brainwashed. :o

Jkboehme, I do not accept your VMP.

WhiteDove, may I be in your camp on this issue? :P

Rascal, I do not accept your morbid, finger-pointing viewpoints. You consistently blame others for decisions that *you* freely made. Things happened because you were forced, or manipulated. Whether taking PFAL, or going WOW, or going Corps, or getting an abortion, or staying in twi as long as you did, etc. etc. It is always somebody's else's fault. <_<

Wordwolf, that is your distorted, corrupted, one-sided, evil-surmising, tunnel vision view of things that I do not share with you. I guess you really must think you are God, the Searcher of all hearts? Balderdash. Whether or not VP had a special connection with God, VP told us that his stuff was not original, so you are just blowing smoke again. Did it ever occur to you that maybe folks like Heefner and Doop and so many others who recruited folks into twi, did it not because of VP's perceived special connection with God, or because they thought VP was so great, or even because of VP AT ALL; but because they honestly wanted folks to be blessed and come to a greater knowledge of the truth, just like they had? Lots of ex-twi folks bear witness to the fact that they learned many truths in twi, and wanted to share them. Nothing wrong with that... It is an insult to the entire family of God, who wanted to move the Word over the world and bless folks with the word of God, whether they were on the BOT, or a leaf on the tree. It is a universal blanket insult to all of us.

NO evidence has been provided on what Craig taught on "how to get born again", which would be sufficient evidence whether or not his teaching varied from VP's teaching. I could be wrong, but it looks to me like folks don't want to actually admit that Craig didn't teach what some are accusing him of? Hey, where's the beef? If you please, I'm still waiting for answers to my two questions.

Now I have heard everything. :D

When you make statements like "everything twi did was for the money or something to get the money", you are impugning the motives of twi participants. You are insulting folks who were involved for years and years, who may not share your distorted, corrupted, unrelenting finger-pointing view of what twi and participants supposedly did. Speak for yourself.