oldiesman

As we all know Jesus' act of giving his life is regarded by Christians as the ultimate in love and sacrifice for man's sins. Don't know why it had to be this way, but since it's the ultimate in love and sacrifice there was no other ultimate way to prove God's love to mankind. But, you appear to be canceling Jesus' sacrifice by saying it was simply copied by earlier cultures like it all is a hoax? I've heard it before; only wanted to know if you believe this too. Thx.

Yes.

The Crucifixion

I get a sense that you do believe in a God that exists, otherwise why all the disagreement? And therein lies the great sin, thinking that we are smarter than, more moral than, more just than, more reasonable than, more loving than God himself who doesn't always reveal why things happened the way they did and also allows ungodly things to happen. And yet Jesus amazingly overcame the greatest injustice of all.

Hadn't thought of it that way... will pray about it thx.

Not necessarily... it's how you ask that matters. I remember sitting down with Craig at a difficult time during my 6th corps experience. He said "ask God to help you." He didn't say study more, do more good works, recite scripture retemories, etc... but simply ask God for an answer. This action necessarily requires faith in Jesus Christ, faith in God. Not question God with my doubt and anger like I know more than him, I'm more logical; or reasonable etc. Simply ask why things happened and God will be there with an answer. Let God speak to you. And if no answer is immediately forthcoming, continue praying about it and the answer will be there. Be patient. To borrow a phrase from VPW "Daddy's cookie jar" may be empty at the moment. Modnote: Again, this thread got political, this post got back to topic.

I find it hard to believe that my fellow believers in TWI didn't have a goal to help others.... I've experienced the opposite. Have no regrets there. What is regrettable now is selling a product (PFAL) that had unquestionable perfection or so we thought.

I get what you're saying. What can I say but "we'll understand it all by and by".... we certainly don't now right? I look at the horrible torture and painful death of Jesus in the same light how can we possibly understand it all.

I do recall some, brain farts and all..

"with a position that long predates victor" Question: was there ever an exhaustive attempt on a thread at GS uncovering all or most of the origins of VPW's teachings? Thx.

Honestly don't know... but I believe faith is still a requirement to accept it as an actual miracle. Similar is the story of Bernadette Soubirous. I believe the hell she went through trying to prove to everyone what she saw, was eventually confirmed by the spring, the healings that occurred, and later her incorruptible physical body. Even with all that, faith still is a requirement. Bernadette Soubirous - Wikipedia

YW and thanks. So here's a question you may have already answered, but perhaps you may want to expound more for the readers understanding. The below link has been described as a "miracle". But what is the non-spiritual explanation? I will admit, I do believe it was a miracle and can't honestly see it any other way at this point. Thx. Miracle of the Sun - Wikipedia

Raf, I think you give because of YOU not because you no longer believe in spiritual things. (my opinion). Your heart and soul. I volunteer to do stuff too, among them, give blood and platelets, not because I believe in the spiritual realm but because I can see it does help save lives. I still do pray when I do this though.

This all is well said and well taken. The (let's say) hundreds of bible claims and stories, bring a once-believer in miracles to come to the place of not believing ANYTHING spiritual? Not to mention that personal experiences of the miraculous? It doesn't work with that VPW "mathematical exactness and scientific precision" but they do happen don't they? All of that should be thrown in the trash can like it was all a silly accident? All comments welcome, thx.

Or else it was the plan all along? If so, logically then "he who planned it all along" must be keeping track of everything. In contrast from the non-spiritual side of things, it all happened by happenstance?

Exactly.

Agreed.

Completely agree. Thank you.

No, and no. But "answers" aren't always there for me either. Hi oldiesman, thank you for your answer. The action I was referring in my question though is whether it is okay with God for believers to choose which scriptures to believe and which to discard. Phil 2:12 does not speak to this. It speaks about how obedience is required when working out ones salvation because God will be working in them, at the same time, to be willing to do his good pleasure. Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (The phrase "fear and trembling" is used in two more verses and obedience is mentioned in them as well. They are 2 Cor 7: 15 and Eph 6:5.) Agree, and agree. The first one, I don't know if it's ok with God to believe one "translation" over another; I think it's one of those mysteries but I do believe that God will be judging that from what he sees in our hearts. The second post, agree, eternal life comes with conditions. Thx for the correction.

No argument. It's readily apparent that one must desire to accept all that responsibility presumably for a greater purpose. Here is a catholic prayer to the Holy Ghost: 'oh Holy Ghost, beloved of my soul, I adore thee. Enlighten me, guide me, strengthen me, console me. Tell me what I should do. Give me your orders. I promise to submit myself to all that you desire of me, and accept all that you permit to happen to me. Let me only know thy will.'

Charity, these are profound questions but I will try to answer as succinctly as possible. Disagreements welcome: Christians are free to do this but my question is “Does God say it is okay to do this anywhere in his word?” "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"? So far for me, becoming an atheist meant that there's not enough of the bible that: - teaches a god who always loves unconditionally and whose gifts are totally free The gifts themselves are free -- no amount of good works can earn them; but, later must be used, otherwise they basically are forfeited. The fruit from the gifts then would be conditional. Like muscles atrophy if left unused? - is authentic without man-made changes, additions and deletions Agree; no originals exist that we know of? - is not based on ancient myths and philosophers Ancient myths can be true or false -- guess it depends on one's own belief? - does not teach absolute obedience to a god or his son in order to avoid punishment (which is not the same as consequences) and hell Agree in part. Punishment is part of getting back on the right track; like our earthly parents would do. But eternal torture (the worst level in hell) is hard for me to believe that God would allow this. - consistently reliable when it comes to putting my trust in what it says. Agree

In the short clip Mr. Hitchens refers to the fear of death. Does he mean 'eternal death'. If so, I would agree, it's there for me. The only comfort I see in eternal death if there's any at all is, it's not eternal fire and brimstone torture. Otherwise I think it's eternally tragic and something to be afraid about.

This carries with it a couple of interesting thoughts at least: (1) The Douay Rheims version says "vomit". This to me conveys the idea that Jesus' reaction to an unconcerned or disinterested churchgoer is one of nausea and disgust. (2) Preterists believe all this already happened, sometime around 70 A.D. and/or shortly thereafter, and the whole bible already has been fulfilled (full preterism); Jesus REALLY meant "I come quickly" he didn't mean 2000+ years later; and talk of "end times" today is BS. "Gathering together" is BS. Preterists also believe the 'millenial kingdom' already happened, but don't ask me how. (Catholics, who have been described as "partial preterists" also think the "rapture" is BS.) Preterism - Wikipedia added for reference purposes

Yes he's funny and very bold. Obviously he threw away the idea a long time ago that he will be meeting the lord when he dies, LOL. BTW Raf, wanted to ask you: is "humanism" the same as "naturalism". Please advise, thx.

Thx Raf. I got to the below comment and it made me smile. Gotta get to work now though! I will read the rest later or tomorrow. "The invisible and the non-existent often look very much alike."