geisha779

Hi, It always surprises me, and it shouldn't, when people pronounce judgement on something with no more than a cursory understanding. The human condition I suppose. To see things through the small prism of our tiny understanding. I do this. To follow Him and to cleave to Him, we often give up much much more than burying a parent. We can lose parents, children, loved ones-riches-comfort-our dreams and desires, and sometimes our very lives to follow Him. He tells us to give up the world--he calls some to wretched poverty. WHY would a loving God ask this of us? Ego? Vanity, Cruelty? Kicks? Who would follow a God like that? However, the apostles had no problem dropping their lives to follow. Millions upon millions have done the same. Many-Many to horrible deaths-most SINGING praises to Him as they burned or were tortured. SINGING as they died. Some watched their children die first. Read some martyr stories--they will SHOCK you. The man who wrote "It is Well" wrote it as his ocean liner passed over the spot where his FOUR daughters had recently drowned. Peter was crucified upside down because He didn't count himself worthy to die in the same manner as Jesus. How is it that people can leave what you proclaim important? Family values was it? For what? Christians leave worldly comfort for a life here on earth that is marked with suffering. Not all Christians prosper--not all are healed--but ALL are chastened. All are tried. All are stripped of pride. Who would do this? Most would call us crazy. Not a surprise. But why do it? Why do we do it? Willingly-Gladly- Here is a term you have heard on this thread--Because we KNOW Him. A moment in His presence and we are dropped to our knees. His GLORY and HIS LOVE are unfathomable. His glance sustains us--He is WORTHY of ALL I have to give. What I have here is temporal-a fleeting moment--but what I am given is an eternity with Him. He strips me of the temporal--the fleeting and the things that draw me from Him--so that I can recieve the very best thing. Himself. He saves me, refines me, and will someday present me. He gives me Himself. He is enough. Life isn't about God, IT IS God. Joy is God. Peace is God. A verse that we are all familar with John 10:10--is true--but it isn't riches, or cars --or stuff that give us abundance--it is Him. God has no pride-or ego-He is gentle, kind and he is loving. He gives us Himself because that is the very best--that is His unspeakable gift. That is worth ALL--HE is Worthy. If I place something before Him in my life--He loves me and enough so that He will refocus me on Him. I have been given things from God and then had them taken away. GOD TAKES THINGS AWAY. He always shows me that HE is best for me. Through difficult-painful trials-I have learned to THANK and PRAISE Him. To understand that He KNOWS Best. Now here is the kicker---I am to love you---to lay down my life if need be as a witness of His love for YOU! After leaving my dying parents. It has been done many times before. A young North Korean man was tortured to death--but as he died he forgave and loved His captors. One of them was converted by his witness and now serves the persecuted Church in North Korea. Now KNOWS Jesus and would willingly die to save someone else. Why would he do that? Love--because he is given unspeakable love in the person of Jesus Christ. The same Jesus who told that man to let the dead bury their own and to follow Him. The same Jesus who loved him and understood far greater than you what it means to follow Him--Knows the greater gift He gives-knows eternity. He knows that gift is worthy. Nothing comes before Him-Nothing. Not my ideas-not my values, my family, my selfish wants, or my life. Because that is the best. He offered that man the Best thing ever possible-to follow Him into eternity.

We have a judge and he DOES make such a distinction. If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine CONFORMING TO GODLINESS, he is CONCEITED and UNDERSTANDS NOTHING; but he has a MORBID interest in controversial questions and DISPUTES ABOUT WORDS, out of which ARISE ENVY, STRIFE, ABUSIVE language, EVIL SUSPICIONS, and constant FRICTION between men of DEPRAVED mind and DEPRIVED of the TRUTH. 1Tim 6 3-5 Conforming to Godliness:does NOT include sexual abuse-drinking(Drambuie anyone?), smoking(got the beanbag ashtray and Kool shorties?), abortion, abusive language, foul language, and on we go. . . . . . Concieted: Man of God for our day and time(Choke) Understands nothing: Those collaterals come to mind---- not to mention JCING Morbid: Advanced Class need I say more? Disputes about Words: I am now laughing--throughly/thoroughly-My God My God why hast though forsaken me-I could go on. . . . Envy/Strife/Abusive language--Ever hear a Sunday Night Service Evil Suspicions: Seed boys and a devil spirit under every rock or in most questioning believers Friction-Depraved--LOL Behavior does separate one from scriptural truth.(Actual Scriptural truth, not the free-love doctrine of VP the Ohio Huckster) WD -- Your arguments while verbose are ridiculous. Men like VP et al do not accept sound healthy teaching. They advocate a different doctrine and they reject doctrine conforming to Godliness Teaching not based on scripture will always result in a life that is UNHOLY and is marked by sin. These men usually have known the truth and walked away. They are predators. They can fill their bathtubs full, but cannot walk on water. VP will have his day in court. I don't want to be standing next to him shoring up his "Ministry" on that day. I think I will just stay on my knees before a HOLY God.

Oh Please-that is so passe-so 19th century ---We will just get him on stage with Benny Hinn and slay him a few times. Ooops I mean in the spirit. Or did I?

Hi Jen-o Thanks for the response. I love your passion! Knowing the Lord--you know that no one can denegrate Him. His work on the cross is complete. He is who He says He is. Every knee WILL bow and every tongue Will confess Him as Lord. That is a given according to the bible. Although I did not see the mocking here you did, I gotta tell you-- Jesus was mocked by tougher guys than Invisible Dan and whoever else. One even repented! He still managed to finish His work and save us. He STILL manages to love those who don't yet believe on Him. Your job according to His command is to love them too. If you "Know" Him--obey Him. Life is a bit more pleasant that way. Everyone the Lord loves He chastens-- While I admire your stand and steadfast declaration of the Lord--I have to just wonder a bit at the shrill tone? Take a look at what picture the Gospels paint of Jesus--when He rebukes His disciples and claims He is the only way. Then imagine you regard Him as just some man. Couple that with our Way experiences with "Leadership" and then possibly rethink the question asked. Don't ever lose your passion! Thanks so much! Take Care

Sounds reasonable, except when you consider the "Word" or "Commandments of God" taught by VP. Then the whole premise is flawed. As many times as we heard--It's the word-the word and nothing but the word. We were not taught the word. We were taught a religion. The religion of VP. A very legalistic religion in fact--hmmm kinda like the Pharisees. The true word is pure-Ps 12:6 19:7 and actually does condemn adultery and abuse, both spiritual and sexual. Do I ACTUALLY have to quote scripture on this one? We never had the truth in the first place. So, VP et als behavoir fits like a hand in a glove with what he actually taught us. Let's see some of the gems carved out for us. True Godly sorrow and repentence-eh whatever-no longer have a sin problem--administration of grace dont-cha-know. Abortion-Hey a-okay! The ABSENT Christ???? MOG?? I thought the Pope was bad. The Gospels were OT????????? For our learning--yeah we may have missed a few things in there. Wasn't John 10:10 the whole premise? Believing=Recieving Works for saint and sinner alike?? Well, that sure takes God out of the equation. The suggestion of the MOG is tantamount to a command--Please don't quote David to me-- Christians should be prosperous? Who says, Jesus didn't even have a place to lay his head? Romans 13 - Taking old Billy out behind the woodshed. John 1:1--at least the Jehova Witnesses got it. The company we kept! The fear in the heart of that mother-- 4 crucified-the 6 denials I forget how many temptations he added?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . What a crock! This doesn't include the more advanced teachings for the uber-spiritual. Abusing the women of the kingdom to heal them--yep that's a gem. Real pure-peaceable and easy to be entreated. No word in the Way to make void. What that man and his minions did is sadder than I can even express. The condemnation heaped on his head is frightening Rev 22: 18 & 19 Oh, I forgot we don't fear the Lord. I bet he does now. Shame he ruined the bible for so many. If you have not picked it up in awhile--it is a Great read, less the way doctrine-it makes some sense.

Hi, Somewhat confused here and please bear with me. What did I miss? People are demons? HUH? What was the big deal about Invisible Dan's question and cman and Oakspears follow-ups that solicited that kind of response? Not trying to be antagonistic at all, I promise, but WHOA! WOW!! I love the Lord and I wasn't offended. Been there. Wondered similar things myself?? Glad I did---it helped get me to the place I accepted Him. Jen-o God doesn't defend Himself--He declares Himself. We show Him to others through love. Cman did kinda seem right on that. Your defense--while powerful--makes me wonder why you get so upset about a few questions. Maybe I misunderstood? You are so right it was a destructive cult. It hurt peoples very souls. If stances are taken and questions are asked--who am I to judge these are permanent? I declare what I know to be true about Him--share the love He has given me and the rest is His to deal with. Jen-o I am really glad you know the Lord Jesus--awesome isn't He? Kind and gentle and able to deliver? I love the way He never infringes but woos. How He chastens with love and refines our hearts. There is real peace in His authority and unspeakable joy in Him. Sorry to impose on this thread too much--I saw a question and my heart was to answer it. It still is. Yes, He is all He is cracked up to be and More! Be Happy--He lives!!

Excathedra, Your dignity inspires-so right back at ya sister! Sunesis, Ain't it the truth. Step away from the light, I mean the church. WOW! Been years since I have played "Bible Gotcha" Seems to be a still viable sport with some here. The twisted logic and double speak remind me of the "Good Old Days" when I used to hit people upside the head with scripture. I guess I just don't have the stomach for it anymore. I am rusty and now lack the talent to twist and turn those words to wound. Er, I mean expound. Sorry, don't mean to derail or get These little emoticons are sooo cute!!

I heard a rumor that David repented and had some Godly sorrow for His sins. I missed TWI "LEADERSHIPs" sorrowful heart for the pain they caused. Even Jimmy Swaggart had the good manners to cry crocidile tears.

Hi Invisible Dan You said "When you gather all the citations from the gospels of such cases, it presents us a rather unsettling depiction. Unsettling in the fact that it's all too familiar." I have to agree with you that it is unsettling. I actually went through a similar thought process for awhile. For me, and I understand this is not a widely held belief here, it was the WHO of Jesus that helped me to know Him. He is authoritative, because He is the final authority. He rebuked because He lived among them and they could not see Him. He stepped into time to show them and us who God is. He actually has the authority and power to teach, chasten and refine. The difference is the love he does it with. He gave Himself for us. He proved His love. And Dan, He loves like no other. But, if He is just a man--then it very well can seem "all too familar". If He is who He claimed to be---it is beyond wonderful that He would even bother. That is to His Glory--not ours. It is hard to see through the clutter of odd TWI doctrine, but I for one am glad you ask these questions. I hope you keep looking and wondering and asking until you meet and know the Jesus who loves you and gave His life for you. Anyway you go I hope you have joy--but, please don't dismiss the joy of knowing Him. He gave us the VERY BEST thing ever possible-Himself.

"it is my opinion that, the conduct of these hypocritical "whited sepulchres" indeed nullifies their purported "beliefs" as being "biblically accurate"...........it is also my opinion that, despite their interpretation of what is "scriptural truth", any such "scriptural truth" they may have spoken or taught is indeed negated (as spoken or taught by them) by their blatantly "unscriptural" conduct!" DWBH Yes, God gave His HOLY-JUST-PARADOXICAL-PEACEFUL-KIND, and WORTHY-TRUTH- meant for the meek and humble to a bunch of ABUSIVE-PLAGARIZING-ADULTEROUS-DEVIL SPIRIT OBSESSED-HUCKSTERS. The rest of Christendom which (missed the snow on the gas pumps) was of course kept in the dark. Those idiots! Men and women martyred were "misguided" as they were put to death for their faith. They should have subscribed to the Sunday Night Service. Hmmm 2 things God HATES--Powerful language from a HOLY God. 1. To be a peddler of HIS word.2Cor2:17 2. To cause one of His little ones to stumble Mt 8:16--I think in IMHO rape and sexual abuse may cause one to stumble-just a guess. Peddle-Dishonest men seeking personal profit and prestige at the expense of Gospel truth and peoples souls. John MacArthur This goes for those ridiculous "Off Shoots" Who still hold the "Truth" VP et al taught them. Deep breath and here we go----Keep denying who Jesus said He was and is and look what it gets us. However, we were always in good company. The Moonies, the Mormons, the Jehova Witnesses, and the little known Christadelphians. All because VP couldn't hold up under accountability to a church. Yeah--their behavoir nullifies every last word they speak. IMHO

Hi Again, Politically correct? Expedient? Or gentle, loving and kind. There is a big difference. It is expedient to say there is nothing wrong with homosexuality--everyone has a right--I don't care what people do in their own bedrooms. It is politically correct to support "Gay Rights" or join Rosies Cruise and march on pride day. It is gentle, loving and kind to reach out to those who are lost--anyone who is lost. I remember when I realised that God is HOLY and JUST! Post Way. It scared the H out of me--quite literally. But, not knowing Jesus from Adam, I set out to save myself with acts and words of righteousness. I was going to save everyone else as well. Turns out they were self-righteous works and words. I ran around telling people what God says is right and wrong. Nothing wrong with that--if I had done it in love, motivated by God's AMAZING graciousness. I was motivated by fear and frustration that people didn't see a Holy and frankly SCARY God. He loves everyone right? I heard that alot. How can he condemn when He loves. He is Holy (A bad word in TWI) He cannot abide sin--he cannot tempt with evil and none of us--Not a one can stand before Him on our own merit. Each one of us needs a Saviour. Someone who is perfect and accepted on His merits--to stand in our place. We have been freely offered such an awesome gift. That is love. If you liken God to a HUGE-POWERFUL - Storm--something you cannot stand-up in or control--You can liken Jesus to the sweet dry and tender shelter provided in that storm. A place to be loved and accepted. If you see others out in the storm staggering -- unable to find shelter---do you yell out their sin to them in hopes they will change and make their own little shelter? Or do you reach out and say look--there is a way to be safe and loved. Here it is--join us. When we enter such a place we find the most amazing love and peace. We are drawn to such an unspeakably kind, merciful and loving presence. When we see that love --our hearts yearn to love Him back and to obey His words. That is how we change. Being accepted and loved. We love Him because He first loved us. God never defends His existence. He declares it. He doesn't beg us for our obedience-He expects it. He doesn't call us to condemn--He calls us to love. There is no condemnation of Christians here. Not any that I have seen. If you want to see what a persecuted Christian looks like--Go to the VOM (Voice of the Martyrs) website. While you are there--pick up a pen and paper and write a prisoner in chains for his or her faith. Otherwise--I would just suck up the few little comments here or there. We were all in a very destuctive and nasty cult--many still stagger in the storm. It is a different journey for each here. Have a little confidence that God is able. Another two cents please!

Hi, I am basically a lurker here. I read with interest, but rarely post. Hope it is okay to just jump in. This thread and others are interesting to me because my son and I have often had this discussion. We live in an area that has a very large gay community. It is no secret to this community that Christians disapprove of their lifestyle and why. What is sadly a secret to many is the love that is shed abroad in our hearts. When you know someone has a pre-conceived idea of you and it is negative--the first thing that happens is you go on the defensive. Right? Who wouldn't? So, why not reach out with the love freely given to us. It isn't my job to convict someone of their sin. I don't want that job--it belongs to the Holy Spirit. It is my job to love others as myself--I am pretty self-centered--so it is a HUGE task! The gay community is WELL aware of Christians disdain for them---they even know why!! What they need to see from those of us who claim to know Christ is His amazing love for His creatures. He died for All men--shows Mercy to those He chooses and He sorts it out-- We are called to love--even our enemies as He does. You can share the gospel much more readily with someone who isn't running from your disapproval. I know what the bible says about homosexuality. Who doesn't? I was delivered from a Bible worshipping--idolatrous-- cult--who knows but God--whom He has called? Treat people with love and show them God's heart. It is the GOODNESS of God that leads to repentance. Not the scariness of God-- Just my Two-Cents-probably all it is worth!

I am laughing because I remember the great change hunts!!Check the couches--check the laundry! Did you check ALL the pockets??LOL I became a master dumpster diver. Once my daughter grabbed an apple at the store-took a huge bite and I worried!!- But, we had exactly 18 cents to cover her toddler purchase. A close one!! When I think now of all the houses we had to share and the basics we went without I shudder. Good life lesson I guess. Think I have it figured out now though, which is why I give where I want when I can!!

Hi, I don't normally post-I lurk and read and look for friends---BUT---this topic is too good to miss. When we left in 1988--ages ago--during the "Great Mass Exodus". (Basically the whole state walked) I remember the limb leader had held back the ABS. He said we were all welcome to take it back. Hubby went and grabbed ours and what did we do with it??? GOT OUR PHONED TURNED BACK ON!! Then we really splurged and got the BIG box of Pampers!! Two babies and no phone!! What was I thinking??? Had to ABS!! None of them deserved or deserve our money. Not a single one! That is my own humble opinion for what it is worth! THANKS-that felt good!!

Hi Does anyone know if they are still "IN" and where they are? Mona-if you happen to read this--we still love and miss you both. Hope all is well-you are often in our thoughts!! I drive by Chester Street and remember you!! Mary&Tom

Hi, You can reach Tom at bauer777@comcast.net or tbauer777@gmail.com He lives in Massachusetts and I am sure he would love to hear from you.