geisha779

Hi Pond, Got it now. . . . I do forget sometimes. I will leave you alone now--but finish with this. The reality is---that is what MOST Christians consider a "False Gospel" and "Another Jesus"-- HOWEVER, it is what I believed for years. It is what leads us down seperate paths. I too believe Jesus was fully human as well as fully God. I mean you NO disrespect,(None, Not a drop) but, I would not be true to what I know if I did not say. . . I find that a very scary understanding of the most amazing event in human history.

I would say it is a fair assesment that we wholly disagree on this topic. It is a question of God's sovereign will--something TWI robbed me an understanding of. I understand your perspective--. I just wanted to make that point. Perhaps saying "God killed Jesus" is not the most tactful way of bringing up a very serious discussion. I am sure this is NOT the right place either. The death of Christ was ordained and appointed by God. It was to make His soul a redemptive offering for sin. Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: "Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the LORD and against His Christ." For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done Here is a better explanation: "He was pleased by the redemption that was accomplished. He was pleased that His eternal plan of salvation was thus fulfilled. He was pleased with the sacrifice of his Son, who died so that others might have eternal life. He was pleased to display his righteous anger against sin in such a graphic way. He was pleased to demonstrate His love for sinners through such a majestic sacrifice. For all the evil in the crucifixion, it brought about an infinite good. In fact, here was the most evil act ever perpetrated by sinful hearts: The sinless Son of God—holy God Himself in human flesh—was unjustly killed after being subjected to the most horrific tortures that could be devised by wicked minds. It was the evil of all evils, the worst deed human depravity could ever devise, and the most vile evil that has ever been committed. And yet from it came the greatest good of all time—the redemption of unnumbered souls." This is why the cross is so very important. Why it is so shocking to dismiss it. It pleased God to bruise Him for a purpose. I will say we are all collectively guilty--but that does not answer the question of His Sovereign plan or purpose. It was carried out by man--ordained of God. I will stick with my understanding--but I wish you well.

Actually Pond--one could easily come to the more accepted conclusion. It was God who killed Him--for you and I. An innocent sacrifice--which is what makes it so amazing. That is the love He has for us. That is the true gospel. I have to get off the internet!!!--LOL :) :)

That anthropic principle, detractors don't seem to like that one. I just wanted to ask you Have you ever read The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. Your post, and the following couple of replies---reminded me of a conversation between "Screwtape" the cheif Demon and his nephew "Wormwood. Sunesis--it is such a GREAT book. C.S. Lewis is a bit cerebral for me--Mere Christianity cannot be read before going to bed--you will be asleep in under 5 minutes!!LOL It is a GREAT book too--but deep. If you get a chance google this paticular conversation--read in its entirety it is amazingly sharp--I copied a little bit for you. I know this IS off and can derail this thread so others can feel free to just IGNORE it. It is NOT a DARE. I find it amazing many are WILLING to believe the POSSIBILITY of other life forms-yet eschew the idea of God.--Screwtape is talking about not exploring the idea of the cosmos as it often leads one to God. Your point about the exact factors needed for life made me think of this. You begin to see the point? Thanks to processes which we set at work in them centuries ago, they find it all but impossible to believe in the unfamiliar while the familiar is before their eyes. Keep pressing home on him the ordinariness of things. Above all, do not attempt to use science (I mean, the real sciences) as a defence against Christianity. They will positively encourage him to think about realities he can't touch and see. There have been sad cases among the modern physicists(Meaning coming to Christ--still happens today). If he must dabble in science, keep him on economics and sociology; don't let him get away from that invaluable "real life." But the best of all is to let him read no science but to give him a grand general idea that he knows it all and that everything he happens to have picked up in casual talk and reading is "the results of modern investigation." Do remember you are there to fuddle him. From the way some of you young fiends talk, anyone would suppose it was our job to teach! Your affectionate uncle SCREWTAPE

Hi, You don't have to turn it into a doctrinal discussion--good old common sense prevails. Does Hannibal Lecter get a bunch of babysitting gigs? No, why not? Would you let the neighorhood sex offender run Sunday School? Does a blind man drive the school bus? We make judgements EVERYDAY about people. We are careful with our children. We teach them to be careful. Why? There are bad people and we have to judge them according to what they do--to stay safe Seems simple enough--We have a mind and reason--keeps us SAFE and our children safe. We have laws which carry penalties if we fail to do this with good old common sense. Why on earth would God expect less from us than the state?

Hi Ben, Just wanted to add this--although what you said didn't really oppose my thread(I don't think you really fully read it)--you seem intent we not judge men like VP.(Meaning call them exactly what they are) Not doing so from a common sense point is absurd and from a biblical standpoint wrong as well. As I said--we better judge them according to their fruit--and we had better know their FALSE gospel. Discern --not condemn them to hell (God's Call). But. . . call them who they are and warn others. We have to make a right judgement to do this. Is it okay if we call them. . . . . "the first born of Satan?" That one was for you ID :)

Sunesis, You have brought joy to my heart and tears to my eyes with this post. You glorify Him with your words for He is truly divine. . . as you say. Praise and worship were also stolen from us in TWI. True praise and worship--not the Lo Shanta --version. This too we can ask the Holy Spirit to teach us. He can usher us into Gods presence where we WILL fall to our knees. We will either cry like babies or only be able to utter praises like "You are worthy". Knowing Jesus as we do now--God our Savior--we can fall so in love with Him. I mean--head over heels--can't get enough--gotta have more and more love. It is a wonder we ever stop smiling. I mean thanking Him for chastisment kinda love. The kinda love that sees you through the trials and causes you to KNOW He will turn it to good. Anticipation of His goodness and grace and the assurity we will see it. The kinda of love that sees us through times when He is silent. And God DOES hide His face from time to time. These are the hardest, but He always does even this so perfectly. The kinda fascination that keeps you pondering over the simplest question. Jesus can ask the most amazing yet simple questions--bring it back to right with one phrase. He is AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!! Didn't mean to derail--Dot what a lovely post--Yes, we can ask the Holy Spirit to teach us. HE does teach us. -- If you would like-- ask Him to show you WHO He is. Ask Jesus to reveal Himself--tell Him your heart to know Him. It is really all about Him--that is Christianity--Jesus. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him. When WHO appears? Who annoints? I love that you are healing Dot. I am so happy for you. The first vail left me when I walked--it was like scales falling from my eyes. The others -- like who is Jesus--took a bit longer. Take Care Geisha Edited for spelling

Hey Ben It was my post not Wordwolf's and apparently you didn't quite catch it all. I said:"These are righteous judgements. I can't condemn VP to an eternity in hell. That is God's call. I can and MUST judge VP's gospel and his actions and his life which all tell me his heart and that he was NOT a Godly man--but a servant of evil." Fair enough Ben--you and I see things differently, or we are both parsing words. Fool me once. . . . . Take Care Geisha Added content in .

Hi Ben A couple of things . . . .You said. . . . When you say judge according to God's standards not the world's, I get that; however, we are not to judge because we don't know what's in a man's heart. In the cases of VPW and LCM, we have no right to judge them as good or bad, yet, we have the right to say that what they did was wrong--their fruits are bad, not they're bad people. You see, only God knows what those two were thinking and what led them to betray their sheep etc. Bottom line, we know part of their story, but certainly not all of it; therefore, we say they were wrong--it's God's place to judge. Ben, God commands you to love Him with all of your heart-soul-MIND- and strength. He wants all of your reason and understanding as well as your tender heart. I really see your tenderness here. BUT Paul said: 2nd Cor :12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. He made a judgemet on these men. He wanted to cut the ground out from an under them! The reason it is sooooo tricky is because they were masquerading as Apostles of Christ. Did VP consider himself an Apostle? I heard that MANY times as he was bringing new light to the Church. I could be wrong, but that was the buzz I remember. Even if that is not 100% accurate, he acted the part. The reason I make such a judgement is VPW preached "Another" Gospel Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Again, Paul is judging those who preach "another" gospel. Jesus commands us to use righteous judgement. John7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." Ben a good tree produces good fruit -- a corrupt tree corrupt fruit. We CAN know what kind of people they are. At least in VP's case--he came out of the church. That is a HUGE deal. If we do not discern what kind of gospel is preached or by what kind of people-EXPOSED in the bible for us. We will go from one mess to another. We have to be able to discern the emergent church-the peace and prosperitry gospel. False teachers. . . . .Benny Hinn is easy--what about someone like Joyce Myers? Hebrews 5:14. . . . . . who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. People who come to Christ learn to discern truth from error and holy behavior from unholy behavior. These are righteous judgements. I can't condemn VP to an eternity in hell. That is God's call. I can and MUST judge VP's gospel and his actions and his life which all tell me his heart and that he was NOT a Godly man--but a servant of evil. Now, as far as LCM is concerned--here's one for you--He has been pulled away from TWI--his family -- lost all and is humbled. I hold out great hope for him. And I pray he repents. Through illumination of the word the Holy Spirit provides His saints the capacity to discern divine truth, however, that doesn't mean we still don't need teachers or know it all--it takes hard work. The danger is always judging . . . self-righteously. We had BETTER judge or discern these men spiritually or we end up in "The cult part 2" However, people with plain common sense know-good and evil as defined by the actions of VP. Take Care Wordwolf, I didn't even think of that. It seems such an odd concept to me--that the betrayer of Jesus would be born again. We often lose the characteristic of God's that is the most sobering--He is just. Jesus said he was a devil. We can make a good assumption from that. :)

According to the NASA web Sight--there is a solar eclipse tomorrow. 8/1 Visible in a narrow corridor. There is an eclipse for the next three years--or I mean this and the next two? George Noory can convince you of aliens in under 5 minutes.:) Hubby went to hear this guy speak -- he was ex-government big wig with access to military records. Real straight forward guy. Normal. He said UFO's have been around for awhile and the vast majority have been checking our our nuclear plants and military installations. The guy was not a nut job. He had records of sightings and all kinds of cool stuff- but who knows. I still doubt it. I like the Eric Idle take of it all. . . . . . . Whenever life gets you down, Mrs. Brown, And things seem hard or tough, And people are stupid, obnoxious or daft, And you feel that you've had quite eno-o-o-o-o-ough... Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour, That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned, A sun that is the source of all our power. The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see Are moving at a million miles a day In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour, Of the galaxy we call the "Milky Way". Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars. It's a hundred thousand light years side to side. It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick, But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide. We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point. We go 'round every two hundred million years, And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions In this amazing and expanding universe. The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding In all of the directions it can whizz As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know, Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is. So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, How amazingly unlikely is your birth, And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, 'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

I was that little possesed girl--called so by a limb leader I never met. I was taking away his nearly free labor by marrying his crew supervisor--and then insisting he make a wage OVER the poverty limit. Never laid eyes on me--I am 5' 6" tall. Hazy Revelation I guess.

Hi, You will have to take that up with Pastor MacArthur Oenophile--his words not mine. But, I am pretty sure he didn't pass judgement on Judas--just said he didn't believe he was saved. That is called an opinion. Take Care

BowTwi I know you didn't ask me either--take this for whatever you want, but it is an answer from John MacArthur. He did his seminary thesis on Judas. Really good pastor BTW. Not wanting to derail-but what a fascinating question. I remember TWI said he was there on Pentecost-right? Was Judas saved? Answer I wrote my thesis in seminary on that subject—on the subject of Judas Iscariot—because I was fascinated by him. Let me show you the several views. There are, incidentally, people who believe Judas was saved. There are many views. 1. The first view is what’s called the patriotic view, recorded in an Apocryphal book entitled, “The Story of Joseph of Arimathea.” There were a lot of books written after the New Testament that were Apocryphal books, and one of them was this one, “The Story of Joseph of Arimathea.” And in that book, Judas is presented as the brother of Caiaphas, the high priest. He was persuaded by the Jewish leaders to become a member of Jesus’ inner circle. And when he got into Jesus’ inner circle as the brother of Caiaphas, he was a spy. And the reason the people, the leaders of Israel were always giving Jesus a hard time was because there was a guy in the camp who was always telling them what was going on. He was a member of the Sikkarii (sp?), which were the wild revolutionaries who were setting about to destroy Jesus. Now that view is that Judas, poor soul, was a misguided patriot. The poor guy was working for the high priest. What better place for a guy to be. This guy was devoted to the high priest, and surely God would see him simply as a misguided patriot. 2. There is a second view, and that is what’s called the kingdom view. This view is the liberal view, the view of liberal theologians today, and they say that the reason Judas betrayed Jesus was because he wanted to force Jesus into a situation where he would have to set up the kingdom. Judas was tired of everyone hassling Jesus. Judas was tired of the Romans ruling the world, the world in which they lived. And Judas just wanted to help Jesus get the kingdom going, so he betrayed him so he could get him in a position to do what he did. And he had a pure, positive, wonderful motive. And then when the kingdom didn’t happen, he went out and killed himself in terrible disappointment. But that doesn’t make it. The patriotic view doesn’t make it because we have absolutely no evidence, and the second view of the kingdom aspect doesn’t make it because Jesus said, “One of you is a”—what—“is a devil—one of you is a devil.” And Jesus said, “It was better for that man if he’d never been”—what—“born.” 3. No, there was only one reason that Judas betrayed Jesus, and it was simple. It was greed. Greed. He was an ungodly, ambitious, selfish man. He could have come to Jesus, but he didn’t. He is the greatest story of lost opportunity the world has ever, ever heard. I forget who it was that wrote, “Man as of old by himself is priced. For thirty pieces Judas sold himself, not Christ.” And that’s right. He was a man totally dominated by greed. There are some who want to imagine that Judas was saved, but there’s no evidence whatsoever. “One of you is a devil,” said Jesus. And when he died, it says he went to his what? "His own place." No, I don’t believe Judas was saved. He is even called the son of perdition

Kinda gives one a whole new perspective on "Fearing the Lord"--which certainly does keep us from doing evil-- Thanks for posting that--That was what we were involved with. And it was out of that we learned to entertain ideas that were blasphemous.

Hi Ben, Do you mind if I talk to you for just a moment--I may be confused by your post a bit--if so I am sorry--so I just want to mention a few things--hope it is okay?? If the Pharisees had repented, or showed a repentant heart Christ would've accepted them. The key here is, they weren't repentant. They were blinded by their own selfish desires and arrogance. There comes a point where we as must shake the dust from our feet and offer it up to the Good Lord; however, that doesn't mean God quit. He loves us no matter what, just like a parent who loves an errant child. Granted, there are consequences for the decisions that child makes, but as a parent God never stops loving. How did Paul repent? Was he on the road to Damascus to repent? No, it took the presence of the Lord to cause him to repent. God is able to cause all he chooses to--repent. It is nothing within ourselves that can do this--for the bible tells us that our hearts are only evil continuosly. So, how would the Pharisees repent? Nicodemus came to the Lord at night--drawn to His goodness. Who drew him, how did he see? Granted, Groucho, we are supposed to know the difference between right and wrong. What that doesn't mean is judge. Judge not, lest ye be judged. This does not prohibit all kinds of judging. There is a righteous kind of judgement we should be exercising with discernment. While Jesus forbids harsh judgement that legalism promotes. He demanded the exercise of moral and theological discernment, in order to fufill the commandment to discern dogs and hogs from ones own brethern. The same thing Rascal and Groucho are talking about. They are right on the money. This principle governs how one handles the gospel in the face of those who twist the truth. What we must be aware of is condemning others while overlooking our own sin--which leads to self-righteousness. This is so very important to understand because it can lead one into apostasy--AGAIN! As Christians we can choose to help those who are in the wrong, pray for them to see the light, educate others against the wrong or even walk away, but that doesn't mean judge. Judgement is best left up to God, because only God knows the true intentions of a person's heart. As human beings we are often limited by what we see, "know them by their fruits," and sometimes what we see can be deceiving. Whoa wait a minute, we are to know them by their fruits period. Two gates-Two ways-Two destinations-Two Groups of people-Two kinds of trees-two kinds of fruit-two kinds of builders-and two kinds of foundations. Matthew 7--Some judging and discerning better be going on. Judge according to Gods standards not mans. We don't rush to judge--we are aware. It's like the homeless man who's lying drunk on the street or pandering for money. His fruits clearly aren't good, but we have a choice, do we judge this man as worthless? For all we know he may be a veteran who suffered terrible losses during war, experienced mental illness due to what he saw, and as a result lost everything. In effect this veteran paid the ultimate price for his country. So, is this person really worthless, or are they someone we should show compassion? On the one hand are eyes are saying trash of society, but only God knows the full extent of this individual's condition. Vp was not someone laying in the street he was out there pushing people through the wrong gate. We feed the homeless man -- we love him--we give him all we have--Vp is another story entirely. No, judgement as to whom gets to heaven and who doesn't is God's and God's alone. The fruits allow us to determine whether it's right or wrong, but not level judgement. Again--by their fruits you will know them--if they don't know Jesus as Lord--the right Jesus--we can know their destination and we can seek to pull them from the fire of apostsy by telling them the true gospel. We better know this stuff. And in the mean time we best be judging ourselves as well. You sound like a loving Christian--it is nice to speak with you!

Wow, hubby and I are sitting here reading the first post and we just love how very astute this question is. What about the differences and how do we handle them? First VP is dead, and he has his judgement. He cannot repent of his sins. I want no one to suffer an eternity void of God. VP is judged by God, who is able to lead to repentance whom He wishes. But, why does it seem Jesus made a distinction? He was so incredibly tender to the woman at the well, who had all the husbands. He revealed Himself to her. I fall so in love with Him when I see His heart here. But, when He dealt with the Pharisees it seemed an entirely different animal. What was it the Pharisees did that was so unforgivable? Is there such a thing as an unforgivable sin? Is it to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, meaning to consciously reject His incontrovertable testimony to the truth of the Gospel? Paul blasphemed the Son of Man prior to his Damascus road experience, had he rejected that experience he would have blasphemed the Spirit. Paul was forgiven his actions against Jesus, as his unbelief stemmed from ignorance. However, the Pharisees witnessed firsthand the miracles He did, knew the truth of His claims and still blasphemed the Holy Spirit because they rejected the fullest possible revelation of God. Even Nineveh repented! Doesn't the bible tell us we have all fallen short? What is the difference? Once you know the truth and reject it. What seperates out VPW? This one is tough. VP taught "another" Jesus, and "another" Gospel. What does Paul say about this? 2Cor11:13-15 For such people are false Apostles deceitful workers disguising themselves as Apostles of Christ. And no wonder for Satan himself is disguised as an angel of light. so it is no great thing if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, their destiny will be according to their works. Paul had no problem proclaiming their judgement. I am less bold and leave that to God, but I have no problem speaking out on the evil done by them in the God of TWI's name. It is NOT the same God. We rejected all things Christian in TWI. Jesus, The Holy Spirit, The CROSS, --the Church or Body of Christ (true Christians), the preexistence of Jesus, remember-Jesus a man with a fallen nature yet without sin. Another Jesus. Where did we learn all that? From a man who came out of the church. At some point if we still seek God, we have to start learning just how EVIL TWI is and was. That is a must to avoid another jaunt into apostasy. It is also a must to seek Jesus and for Him to reveal God to us. We should be screaming from the rafters. I still believe in eternity.

I agree with you, but would just add that what is more telling to me than anything--was the deadness in his heart toward God, which allowed him to feel nothing toward people. His public and private teaching never promoted Godliness. He was an abuser. A false teacher and a very dangerous man. Not only did he damage people then--he fooled many into believing they are saved. That is the worst of all of this--to destroy someones life is horrible-utterly horrible--he was not satisfied with that--he went after, and won over many an eternity. Please don't get me wrong, many were saved before they got involved, and some maybe while in TWI, but it takes true Godly repentence and a conviction of sin to be saved. God is able in any situation to make that happen. But, there is no quick formula--a few "Other Spirit" Lo Shantas and salvation. What is so very telling to me about Victor Paul Wierwille is that God left him alone. He didn't correct him, he let him bury himself up to his neck and wallow there. That is the worst thing that can happen--for God to just leave you to it. He died in his sins--he died never knowing God.

Hi Mr P-Mosh I owe you a great big apology--I did sound a bit bitter to say the least. Did you ever have one of those days where it seems the bad news will not quit? Well, I had a couple of those weeks recently. I spend alot of time dealing with issues regarding the persecuted church. I got sad news after sad news and it built up for me. So, I was less than gracious with your posts. I am sorry. In this country I can read the bible and go to church freely. There are many countries where people are not so lucky. It is those people I like to write to and send to their needs when I can. When they are imprisioned for simply owning a bible or having a church--it is sad--they are seperated from their families and often beaten, sometimes tortured and yes, even killed. All for a simple faith in God. It is an irrational fear that causes such a reaction. Your belief or lack of belief in the God of the bible doesn't bother me at all. However, when you tell me I can't say or do something that does bother me. I base my ideas and posts on experience with atheists. And BTW--a very sweet friend of mine--whom I have shared a great deal with is a devout atheist. A psychologist who hates to hear people talk!LOL :) My response to you was at the end of a few horrible weeks--if you would see fit to accept my apology I would appreciate it. My Best, Geisha

Hi, There are some pretty odd formations on Mars and some interesting theories out there, but no I don't think there is life on Mars. About the other thread. I am really sorry if it was me who derailed it. I was worried about responding because of that. If I offended anyone I really do apologise--it is not the first thread I have derailed. I get asked something and respond and then boom--off on another topic. Forgive me--I think it comes from being blonde and brassy--but I didn't want to take it too far off topic--big mouth syndrome I fear. Take Care.

Hi Oenophile, Just wanted to touch on this a bit more before work. First, Kant?? You read Kant? I love it!!! :) That is where I really learned about the preconcieved notions we ALL approach an issue with. That is why I make an effort to hear exactly what someones argument is--and try to approach it as if will not bite me. WOW!! I don't know why, but I love that you used that example!! Second, you are my senior--who knew--but you understood my point--we change at a cellular level because of the passage of time. Quantum Physics is about Time-Space. Time is a reality--but I do get where you are coming from. We could have some pretty fun conversations--but alas--time gets in the way. :) Third--I don't care what Gould thinks--what do you think of the Anthropic Principle? Even Dawkins deals with it. The mathematics are not in the atheists favor, they explain it differently, but most do not dismiss it out of hand. In fact, it was enough to shake atheist atronomer Fred Hoyle into admitting some kind of "Super Intellegence." Hugh Ross an astrophysicist (Don't ask me to check his math) calculated the probability that these 122 constants would exist for any other planet in the universe by chance. 1 chance in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Big number lots of zeros----better odds winning the lottery. Nobel Laureate Arno Penzias--who codiscovered radiation after-glow said: Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing and delicately balanced to provide exactly the conditions required to support life. In the absence of an absurdly-improbable accident, the observations of modern science seem to suggest an underlying, one might say, supernatural plan. Ed Harris a cosmologist said it was "prima facie evidence of deistic design" Many atheists when presented with this evidence will admit some kind of designer--others cling doggedly to the idea of chance. How with a straight face I don't get. That is when the multiple universe theory usually rears its head. In other words by chance we hit the right universe. There is no evidence for this theory--but hey, it is another explantion. What ever happened to Occam's Razor? If there are a limited number of things--finite--how can there be unlimited universes? Remember-matter defined yadayada. Besides the need for a designer is still there--multiple times--we always come back to the static. God tells us to look to the heavens--they scream out infinity--He is infinity--our minds have a hard time comprehending this-- For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities have have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. I so get that! I could go on and on. . . . who would have thunk it right, I love this stuff. Don't take Goulds evaluation, he may have had an axe to grind--look at the 122 constants yourself. Quite a list-- I hope you have a wonderful day!!

Oh I get it now Rhino--I am dense. You think it is because Don't Worry was a big player, some still carry that worship over today? Am I wrong? No malicious voice or tone. I figured out who it was--remembered him, and feel real empathy for what he MIGHT still carry. I could not imagine being in the middle of that storm. A life altering event for both victim and those who were putting their finger in the hole trying to stop the flood. He seems to have shown real care and concern some 20 years later. Who am I to add to his memories with questions of Why? I am just glad he got out when he did--lead my hubby and I right out--chain reaction. But, as a muckety muck--who cares?? As a human being I do care enough to offer a few words of kindness--TWI hurt me--but I never had to stand up to guns and dogs while trying to care for my little kids. Empathy and understanding with a backing of forgivness to one who has real concern for the OTHER Men's victims. Seems more well adjusted than not?? Oh, hubby had a gun pulled on him once though--a wacky limb leader-- Take Care--no malice or tone meant at all.

Hi, Oh my Gosh--you are NOT kidding! I knew someone who would talk to me for HOURS about this stuff. He would only stop when my eyes glazed over. He gave me books which I loved, but took me forever to read. But the bottom line is--you give me another explanation, I say mine. Which carries more scientific weight? I say prove yours--you say prove mine. The big bang theory bothers atheists. It means a cause. Most don't argue other theories with quantum physics because there are too many ifs, they argue we don't know what caused the big bang. I say I do ---This sends the atheists screaming for the hills. The word arrogant seems to pop up as well. But, I always say the big bang is consistent with the creation story of the bible--I never say it proves it. Anyway--the Anthropic Principle is 100 constants--I know the arguments--Nature Vs. Intellegence, but there has to come a time that you look at this and wonder-- right? God is confirmed to me everyday--when I use words like awesome-amazing-incredible--it is because I have seen Him in His design--just talking about this stuff should make one pause and wonder about the idea of God. How big must He be--How able? To consider hurts no one. Now, do you know something about time the rest of us are missing? :) Didn't you just put forth the idea of singularities?? Beginning points? Oenophile, let me in on this one--please--- because NOW (Old enough to know better, young enough to still care). . . is a good time to stop my clock. I noticed a few lines under my eyes and I don't LIKE it! Are you aging? Time is a reality--imposed on us for a purpose. That is what I believe. However I believe God is outside of time and eternal. I am much more comfortable discussing macroevolution with you. I will get back to you. My brain needs recovery from even considering again quantum physics.

If we are talking about harm being done in the current Way. What is calling the authorities going to do? Don't you think the Way is known by the authorities? They can go in and cause a Waco style mess, or pull out all the kids--only to give them back like the Texas cult. But, doesn't there have to be specific evidence and charges or complaints for the authorities to act? They have to investegate. If someone is being held against there will there, that is one thing. But, calling the police because we say there is harm is another. The kids are probably fat and sassy and in their mamma's care. It is much more difficult to prove something unless a victim steps forward and makes a complaint. As for what happened in the past. . . . I cannot imagine that flood gate that opened up, once someone actually understood what was happening and it was WRONG. It took a whole lot for a few to see it--and then to stand against the prevailing belief system in the leadership. Talk about spitting into the wind. If they had just called the authorities what would have happened? All better now? I doubt it. Nut jobs carrying guns while attack dogs were held on people. Could have gotten very ugly---very fast. I am thankful for the lawsuits and have real sorrow for the victims, but I can picture the bloodbath if troopers came in. All anyone could do was take a victim to the authorities--or counsel them to go. But, they had better have been ready to have somewhere to go--money in a bank other than the Way Credit Union, and some provision for their own family. Considering the ties we severed and our limited interaction with the world at large--that would take some preperation. Sounds like it unfolded like it had to. Calling the authorities--would have lead to what? A closing of the Way? I am not so sure. Abuse continued long after the 80's. Without a lawsuit or sustainable charge--nothing happened. NO ONE seemed willing to take it that far. . . . until the Allens--I can't imagine what courage it took them. Sorry blame does not fall at a few chosen feet. Seems hindsight is limited if we forget just how controlled and really wrapped up our lives were in this organization.

Hi Oenophile, Again, nice to speak to you. I really mean that. First let me say--I have not had these conversations in ages. But, I like them when they are civil. So, I appreciate your manner. Not one swipe or sneer from you. Thank-you. Second, let me say Quantum Physics gives me an actual headache, I am not smart enough or learned enough to give a satisfying answer, but that has never stopped me from trying! :) These days my time is spent serving the persecuted church, but I do like these musings. . . . My degree is 19th Century, Regency Period, British History. I know---a more useless pursuit would be well. . . . . nothing. Anything I tell you relies VERY heavily (Okay Totally)on the work of others. So. . . singularities huh? I am assuming that your concern is a violation of the law of conservation and energy within the big bang theory? How you deal with the idea of the initial--meaning static is not really an option anymore--the theory of an original singularity--the one based on our universe---is based on a model with a mathematical formula--any theory for what is outside the model-cannot contradict the mathmatics--but it should also seek support from outside the cosmos. Human understanding. Do you follow?--I am often as clear as mud. Meaning-- A speculation for outside the model,. . . . could be the flying Spaghetti Monster, another----A former universe. . . . another God. But, we were talking about blackhole singularities. Singularities define themselves from within their boundries--no relationship to the space-time itself. To approach a black hole singularity you would lose time. They would always be in the future? Also your black hole would have to be large enough to pull all matter in and would shred time. It would have to be rotating within a ring--it would always be future--there is no real evidence they exist. "The big bang singularity is where all the mass of the universe used to be concentrated. It had all of the properties of a black hole singularity but from it 'grew' space time and matter was released into this space as the fundamental particles of very high energy. This is the big bang. Therefore, the main difference is that a black hole singularity is the end of space time (and pulls matter in) and the big bang singularity is the beginning of space time (where matter and space were made real." That is why Hawkings work on singularitiyg-boundries is interesting. It is then that you start getting into some heavy duty physics. There are the b boundries-which I think more or less proves the Alpha and Omega--but--then there is the cone shaped singularity. I am not smart enough to explain all of this, but singularities do not present the problems to theologians you might think. The problems are-- there are difficulties in placing the initial singularity with the moment of creation. Second--there are energy conditions that may prove to be broken down by quantum gravity effects. We learn about singularities by studying the space-time around them. To touch a singularity and try to extend it to its function in space time--you would just reduce it to a single point--its beginning and end. God is outside of time remember, and for Him--well the beginning and the end have come. Dealing with malicious singularities is also a problem and so freakin far over my head. But, it still does not give us an answer as to the original singularity. Quantum physics doesn't explain away or support the concept of creation, it has yet top do it. It just keeps evolving new conceptual theories. Many not empirically verified. Like the big black hole in the middle that pulls all matter in. We can interpret these theories--but an understanding of God should be considered. Outside time and space--then you start feeling your head ready to explode. You can have anything you want as a theory to what is outside the model, but given that we an explanation in God. . . it is not such a leap to consider Him. :) Evolution coming soon to a theatre near you. . . Anyone reading this please remember these are my thoughts. . . not a dare.