geisha779

Why does it bother you so. Another explanation. Oh that's right--the "Spirit" works in all people EXCEPT Geisha--got it. Typical The fangs come out--the name calling starts. Oh that's right you were going to "discuss" it with me.

Oh my goodness I can't believe I am going to answer this. Tom(My Tom) was talking to Kimberly because he knows her. Second To Tom here. You would have to know my husband--he has said kind words TO AND ABOUT me every single day of our very LONG marriage. That is just him--nine months pregnent and waddling like a duck--that man told me I was beautiful--weight gain--weight loss--bad haircut--sick with the flu--doesn't matter--he is just always that way--that is him and I LOVE it! He calls many people brother--or sister--the people at our church LOVE it. That is just Tom. And I see how YOU respond--feel better? He was being polite to Oakspear. I asked him to. Second, I think he used the word :purview: as function==he did NOT damn you to hell--HE NEVER WOULD. He was telling you the truth. In our church and many churches across the country--we are warned NOT to listen to groups like TWI and their version of "Another" Jesus. My Pastor does it EVERY week Why? Because it is denying a basic CHRISTIAN understanding of WHO Jesus is. I don't care if you like it or not. That is a hallmark of the churches warning against TWI. I wish I knew that back in the day. Would have saved me a GREAT deal of pain. They prey on people just like me who want their ears tickled with an easy health and wealth kinda gospel. Sin--hey no biggie. Where is the transformation? The repentance? I have an apologetics bible. Bought it in the Christian bookstore. Imagine my surprize when I was reading 2 Corinthians 11 and in the margin notes was an explanation of TWI VP and the OTHER Jesus they taught--why it MATTERS and how IMPORTANT it is. That was done by a Christain warning others against groups like TWI and why it is important--why they are CULTS. Logically just consider without the claws coming out. How can you confess and make LORD a Jesus you deny is who He is. You have made a NEW one -- so did VP. He took a BASIC understanding (accepted, for a reason), of the church and put his spin on it. It is NOT the same Jesus of the Moonies or of the Mormons or any other CULT. No, really--theirs is different than VPs, they put THEIR own spin on Him. So, all these groups are running around proclaiming Jesus to be this or that. The church says He is God. Different denominations same Jesus. Why the words from Paul?? It matters. VP gave us an absent Christ and we were to set ourselves up to take His place. Our interprtation of the bible. Do you think I am alone in this understanding of another Jesus? Or do you think VP was right and the Christian Church has it wrong? Or does it just NOT matter? Paul warned you not to suffer it lightly. We are not to be pleasers of men. To tell it like it is. What was going on in the church that Paul was warning against? Your reaction to a short post is so telling. So similar to mine in TWI--the claws came right out and all that thin veneer of Christianity falls away when a word is whispered that you may have it wrong. All the usual suspects come out to prop you up. Perhaps some good solid Christian men with some sound doctrine and a deeper understanding would be a good place to run and seek counsel. You have an amazing resource here in Dr. Juedes. His door is always open. I cannot imagine him telling you it does not matter, but he is far more tactful and well versed than I am. Hank Hannagraph will take a call from you. Ravi Zacharis is a very well respected bible teacher. He also teaches at Oxford and has spoken at the UN. Josh Mc Dowell--Matt Chandler--RC Sproul. They all have open doors if you can reach them. They are some of the men of the Christian Church. Even John Piper if you are near MN. But, I can see your reaction to just the assertion it does matter. I know it. Some people loved me enough to really explain why it does matter. I hope the same for you. Tom and I are surely NOT the ones to do it- Satanic blindness was the topic--I think we have stayed on track.

Debate away my brother. As for me. ................ I am going to spend a nice evening with my sweet and VERY pretty wife. Can't think of a better way to end the day. Your unitarian brethren? Not my purview. As to a Christian concensus............get out and mingle man a little church won't hurt you.

This is not really a debateable issue. It is how the church defines a cult. It is not how the church defines groups such as the 'emergent church" or those who follow after the "health and wealth" gospel. Catholics, Jews, Islam, are all religions. There is correct terminology to define these differences. I suppose one could readily say Islam is a cult. In fact, I have heard this said, but they do not claim to be Christian. Jews either. A cult can be defined in many ways, by many people. For the church, the primary is "Who" they say Jesus is. Which is why the church always defines The Way as a cult. Not really much to argue.

Well why does this not SURPRIZE me!!!!!! EWWWW makes me crazy. When I read the account of Stephen--I was pretty much punched in the gut by this thought. Jesus was SEATED at the right hand of God. SEATED. When Stephen looked up Jesus was STANDING for Stephen. This shows the great love and respect He has for the sacrifice of His martyrs. He mentions one by name in Revelation I think. Stephens death must have had a great impact on Paul and his ministry. A real purpose. VP had things so backwards. How did I EVER buy his YUCK! When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

Oakspear, A name I know well. I hear it in Geisha's prayers. Kimberly and I have known each other for years. She knows I love her. Anything I say to her reflects the fact we were great friends in The Way. I am coming at this topic of cults from a Christian POV. That is how we define a cult in the church. Mormons, Moonies, JW etc. . . . Who they say Jesus is. Interestingly enough--each of these groups have a slightly different take on their man Jesus. To some groups He is a spirit only Jesus. The church has diverse theology, but the SAME Jesus, the center of Christianity. Funny how we used to hear a different take on THAT one. Good to talk to you.

Hi Johnny You and I have had the same kind of flying dream--touch down and take off again. I remember feeling so good when I woke up!! I also knew that I could do it and had to take running steps. In mine I flew from high platform to platform. Hard to describe if you have never had one. Now--It is nice that people support your account of possesion. I knew mine would be the less than popular answer. But, I really really want to share something with you from a heart that is overflowing with love for ex-way. I mean that. I think most Ex-way people have an earnest desire for God. In fact, there is much the church can learn from the zealous love of ex-way. There is also something we can learn from the church. Does that seem reasonable? I know you adhere to much of the teaching you learned in TWI. I get that. It is still so on my heart to at least share something I have learned with you. Take it for what you will. In fact, I will use Dr Juedes words to explain it--He is much more learned than I. If you have a moment please doread it. This is from an article he wrote for CRI Christian Research Institute Journal. I don't think it is on the website--it may be. If you don't think Vp was a false teacher--this will probably not speak to your heart--but considering never hurts--looking at the characteristics of a false teacher and how they lead the flock astray. I see a zealousness in you--God is able and I just hope you will consider my words and Dr. Juedes in the manner I offer them--with love. When we say we cast out demons in His name--we should consider His words when He says--Depart from me I never knew you. Matt:25 One Scripture passage (2 Cor. 11:2-4, 13-15) gives insight into the nature of this controversy, Wierwille's work, and his followers: For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy, for I betrothed you to one husband, that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin. But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully....For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light; therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their deeds. The Way began to grow significantly only when Wierwille traveled to California and recruited followers from the Jesus movement.[16] Like Eve and the Corinthians, these young believers (and many since the 1960s) were "virgins" with simple devotion to Christ, but were not grounded in Scripture and thus were easily led astray. They did not understand that Wierwille preached "another Jesus" (who was only a man) and "another spirit" (not the Holy Spirit personally indwelling them). The apostle Paul warned of deceivers when he told the Ephesians, "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them (Acts 20:29-30). Wierwille was not the only former minister to draw away young disciples -- David Berg was one of several others. Like Wierwille, Berg drew young people from the Jesus movement to form his own group, the Children of God (now called the Family of Love), which uses sexual promiscuity to win new followers. Like Wierwille, Berg's teachings became the ultimate authority, and when he committed adultery, he reinterpreted the Bible in order to defend his sinful practice. This present controversy is serving to alert "pure" believers that Wierwille and his successors are false apostles after all. Followers are now tasting the matured fruit of The Way Tree -- fruit of promiscuity, adultery, plagiarism (a form of lying), authoritarianism, false teaching, unfaithfulness, and lack of self-control. The false apostles' disguises are being pulled from their faces, and the "virgins" who were led astray are returning to the one true Jesus, Spirit, and gospel, and the church of Jesus Christ. This is hard to accept for those who knew V.P. Wierwille as father, friend, and teacher, but both the Scriptures and the empirical evidence demand it. The current turmoil surrounding The Way presents an excellent opportunity for Christians to befriend ex-Wayers and help them discover biblical truths they have forgotten or never known. Christian can also help (ex-) Wayers through four basic steps of reorientation: 1) expose, 2) emotional reaction, 3) relearning, and 4) reconstruction. First, it is helpful to present facts of doctrinal, organizational, and personal error in Way leaders. This includes Wierwille's plagiarism, approval of adultery, authoritarianism, errors of scholarship and Bible interpretation, and so forth. If the person refuses to read or hear material which exposes such errors, then take the time to obtain the primary sources which demonstrate them and ask his or her opinion of them. Point out that Wierwille's adultery and lying (plagiarism) mark him a false teacher, not just a teacher with failings (Matt. 7:15). Second, give ex-Wayers "space" to vent their emotions and hurts, and pray for them and their healing. Show love and patience throughout this trying time of change. It is common for ex-Wayers to take several years to fully separate from The Way and reorient their lives. Third, help them to relearn. They have rejected some Christian teachings (such as the Trinity[17]) primarily because they have accepted Way caricatures and have not fully understood them. Explain teachings carefully, and give them time alone to read the Bible in a newer version (such as the New International Version or New American Standard) which has clearer wording and lacks Wierwille's marginal notes and deletions marked in their old King James Versions. If possible, use Way terminology and address Way thought patterns, or put them in touch with ex-Wayers who can. Fourth, help them through the reconstruction of their Christian lives by introducing them to sincere, Bible-believing Christians, small group fellowships, and churches. This is a big hurdle, because V.P. Wierwille was always more effective at turning people away from the church of Jesus Christ than he was at turning people toward the Bible or The Way International. The one true Jesus He speaks of here is not the same Jesus you were taught to cast out demons by. It is the Jesus of the church. We pulled ourselves out of the body--had our own Jesus--and claimed we were the true household with the real truth. All others were decieved. It was we who were decieved. That is why I react as I do. It is a frightening thing to use His name and not aknowledge who He truly is. Does that make sense? Either way--I do care about your story--just so much that I share this with you. I know it isn't the "Nice" thing to do--but I think it is the nicest thing to do--I really believe in eternity. I also believe He is able. End of this topic for me--and they all breathed a great sigh of relief!!:) :)

Hi Jeff, I hear you as well. David cried out to the Lord for justice--He was not afraid to ask Him for it, because he knew that God's justice would reveal Him in all His wonderful Glory and power--and also in mercy and forgiveness. I am not preaching forgivness here--but only to shout as loudly to the Lord for an understanding. Your heart seems burdened with the wrong and unjust nature of the abuse in TWI. That is a good thing!!! It is a process now--keep shouting until you get hoarse--I will shout with you, but at the end of the day--we want to see Him glorified in ALL of this. So, that His heart is displayed--and all who were so very hurt and are still imprisoned --are healed. That is in here--I know it is. I know He is able. Listen to your heart--He uses it, but just include Him in the shouting --for He really is able to help. My 2 cents for what it is worth. :) :) :) :)

I don't really know or remember TWI's take on it?? I am sure it was bogus. I also feel so inadequate to speak of the persecuted church today. I will say that there are Christians in prison all over the world right now suffering for their faith. I know that we will have persecution if we are His, but I get my feelings hurt if someone looks at me funny. These people suffer torture and sometimes death. If we call ourselves Christian than we should be praying for the persecuted church IMHO. They pray for us. I do know this. They are the Body of Christ and our brothers and sisters. They see amazing miracles--and when you see them they have beaming smiles.Voice of the Martyrs is a great organization that provides lists for people to write to prisioners if you want. I write to them. Churches here also support the persecuted church and that is another way to get involved. I also write the UN and world leaders--this sometimes helps gain their release--if enough people write--they sometimes will let them out. It has happened. There are lists for this as well. You should really look at their site if interested. I don't know how to link to it or I would. I do know--through writing--someone who was recently killed for their faith. But, here, is an uncomfortable place for me to speak of this. There is a book put out by VOM and DC TAlk called Voice of the Martyrs. Very difficult to read, but sobering as to what it means to truly serve the Lord. These people in the persecuted church--really did help change my life. I love them. They showed me what it means to give ones life to Christ. There are amazing stories of the hardest of hard coming to Christ through these people and their faithful witness. There are stories of Muslims coming to the Christians to be healed in the name of Jesus while in the same prison. Amazing Angel accounts. I don't know how I feel about it--it is just a fact--and it is what the Lord said would happen. It does happen. More than you would think. China is a hard place to be a Christian. With the Olympics coming up--we should be praying for them. I wear a braclet that says "Pray for China" I do everyday. There is a real coming to Jesus moment when you learn of the personal stories of persecuted Christians--you want to talk about some veils being lifted? This will do it. It will also have you evaluating your faith very quickly. This part of the Church is so dear to me that I don't feel worthy enough to speak of them. I just know--they are real Christians and servants beyond me.

Thanks for saying that. Another Dan too. It was my sons faithful witness that helped hubby and I back to God. We got out the month before he was born and he was never in TWI. Raised--basically by other Christians--as we sent him off to all the schools and camps-while we still held onto way teaching. He was so patient and faithful to God--and little did we know--he had an army praying for us. That kid moves my heart like no other. I get NO credit. LOL If you met him--you would just be so comfortable and you would know love right away. The most non-judgmental person I know. Truly. Okay--since you INSIST--one story. When he was 15 all on his own, he planned a Tsunmai benefit concert--no help--got a bunch of bands together and did it up right. He raised a ton of money. He has been planning events ever since. He is a truly gifted musician and knows many of the "Big" Christian artists--but it never sways or changes him. He has played with some well known guys-and is just as happy playing at church. Our kids--you gotta love em--they say this generation doesn't know anything but consumership--I beg to differ!!

Ahhh--Ex--here is the great part--although our hope is not in this world--the promises He makes for an eternity with Him make the light suffering of this life a blink. It will be sooooo amazing--He loves like no other and heals the heart--completes and makes us whole. Even in our trials here. . . He is with us and sees us through, He uses them to perfect us. He doesn't bring them on--we do that easily enough ourselves. But, He never leaves us--always takes us back if we wander and He is FAITHFUL beyond what we can imagine. So, we need not fear the trials of this life--He see us through and He LOVES us eternally. He never promised an easy time here, but He did promise an eternity in His glory. So, you can rest assured that not even death can seperate you from Him. Makes our trials a wash really. He is worthy of ALL. He is too good for my pitiful vocabulary--and He loves and knows YOU!! Look to Him--He can ease your load. He WILL show Himself to one as tender as you. I think you know that everyones trials are different, but you seem to have a real heart for people--He knows and cares for you beyond what you could ever imagine. Is that better? Because that is the truth. He will make a way--always.

Hi Mark, YES! your last line is very nice. And I would just tell you that my tone is nice as well. :) Hard to get online. I will be very honest with you here. My concern is that we not be fooled into thinking we are doing something in Jesus' name--with some great authority--when we may in fact just be waking up. HIS NAME carries the authority--it is not to be bandied about and "used" especially by those who don't even believe He is God. Sorry, I cannot fall back into the thought that it just doesn't matter. It does, and it makes all the difference in the world when dealing with this stuff. I know the account in the gospels of others casting out demons in His name. I also know the line--depart I never knew you. If Johnny was possesed--than Johnny was "delivered" by something a "Twig" leader told him about a false "man" Jesus. It supports the garbage we learned in TWI about God. So, although your last line was nice--and I am trying to be nice--the fact still remains--TWI gave us a false Jesus, another spirit, and a whole lotta of very nasty gnostic doctrine. When you say God through Christ--I now hear a very different thing. So, if it was God through Christ it would have HAD to have been--God revealed in the person of Jesus--fully man and fully God. I doubt that is what was evoked--or what was told to be used. I know--I will be so popular after this, but hey, it is what I know to be true. I have read your stuff--gone to your site and I know you don't believe it. Besides--it is just a disorder and can be triggered by many things--I have stopped looking at demons and set my eyes on Jesus--not that I am unaware-I just see the devils wiles a bit differently now. Like right here--a false understanding of who Jesus is and by what authority we envoke His HOLY name. The rest of Christendom gets it--why was it so hard for us? But then again--we were in a cult and decieved by a very bad man and his minions. Worth taking a deeper gander at. We are so wedded to our doctrines--but they may not all be the best thing for us. I send my BEST to you--no malice or ill will. I just can't sit and agree, and not be faithful to Christ. It makes me sad we were this fooled. Rhino and Rascal--Ever have a flying dream? They are the best--lotta implicatations there, but I had one once--I have ALWAYS wanted another--SO FUN!!

Just wanted to add--when someone offers you a more reasonable explanation for something. Is your first response (in the real world) that they will "Fail miserably" and that they will "be defeated" ? Just curious as this seems a rather EXTREME reaction to another explanation. Did I ever say satan was not real? Or did I just offer up a reasoned alternative? Did I try to contain the entire spiritual world in a jar of psycho-babble? Seems to me I recognized what you had--and tried to comfort you that you were not possesed. Johnny--your reaction to an explanation seems to be a bit over-zealous. Hyperbole--we were MASTERS of it in TWI.

Oh my goodness--I was trying to COMFORT you that you were not possesed!! I know this disorder--I and my MOTHER have both had it. It CAN occur abruptly-- we went to a DOCTOR. If it happens again you can go to a Sleep Clinic--they can help you. Satan is not going to defeat me--oh my goodness. I am a Christian and I believe in Jesus who will NOT share His temple with a demon. And Johnny--people who believe they are abducted by aliens have a form of this. What is their excuse--they know what they know as well. With the same dogged determination as you. Did you ever wake yourself up from a dream? You can use the same techniques with this. That is why rebuking may have worked for you. Once I learned what it was and how to awake from it--it abruptly went away--never had it since. Let's be somewhat reasonable-instead of looking to Satan first. He is a bit more crafty Me Thinks! Wordwolf-believe what you wish--demon possesion is very rare-it was NOT demons after me--I had a bout with this stuff-there are more forms than one. :)

Did you ever look into this to see if it might be a more common occurrence--like a sleep disorder? It is in fact called sleep paralysis and often is accompanied by a sense or vision of evil snd fear. Lots of people have it. It is not that rare. Devil Spirits?? Sleep paralysis is a common condition characterized by transient partial or total paralysis of skeletal muscles and areflexia that occurs upon awakening from sleep or less often while falling asleep. Stimuli such as touch or sound may terminate the episode, which usually has a duration of seconds to minutes. This condition may occur in normal subjects or be associated with narcolepsy, cataplexy, and hypnagogic hallucinations. The pathophysiology of this condition is closely related to the normal hypotonia that occur during REM sleep[1]. When considered to be a disease, isolated sleep paralysis is classified as MeSH D020188.[2] Physiologically, it is closely related to the paralysis that occurs as a natural part of REM (rapid eye movement) sleep, which is known as REM atonia. Sleep paralysis occurs when the brain awakes from a REM state, but the bodily paralysis persists. This leaves the person fully conscious, but unable to move. In addition, the state may be accompanied by terrifying hallucinations (hypnopompic or hypnagogic) and an acute sense of danger [3]. Sleep paralysis is particularly frightening to the individual due to the vividness of such hallucinations[4]. The hallucinatory element to sleep paralysis makes it even more likely that someone will interpret the experience as a dream, since completely fanciful, or dream-like, objects may appear in the room alongside one's normal vision. Some scientists have proposed this condition as an explanation for alien abductions and ghostly encounters.[5] A study by Susan Blackmore and Marcus Cox of the University of the West of England suggested that alien abductions are related to sleep paralysis rather than to temporal lobe lability.[6] The paralysis can last from several seconds to several minutes "after which the individual may experience panic symptoms and the realization that the distorted perceptions were false" [7]. When there is an absence of narcolepsy, sleep paralysis is referred to as isolated sleep paralysis (ISP) [8]. "ISP appears to be far more common and recurrent among African Americans than among White Americans or Nigerian Blacks" [9], and is often referred to within African American communities as "the witch riding your back" [

Wow--no wonder it takes so long to heal. Even after all this time I still have to revisit this stuff. It took someone contacting us for me to fall right back into remembering. That is why I came here. It is so funny to me that this stuff is STILL coming up for me. It is the boundries thing that hubby and I still struggle with. I have kids so I make judgements--I am a mother--that kicks in, but I still struggle with defining boundries. I see it in my husband as well. We allow too much influence even still. Although, I will say we did have a backlash the other way for awhile--we would not even take wise council from loved ones. LOL I went so far as not believing in God for awhile. That didn't last too long. I have to really look at this again--maybe for the last time--and really consider what it was that caused me to fall for it all. Is there anything left that leaves me open? Youth doesn't explain it all away--I have a son who is my age when I got in--He is amazing. Kinda sad--we look up to him!! That was a very nice--well thought out post. It actually stirred some real thoughts in me. Thank-you

Got it--I realized after I wrote! LOL I will leave it--long doctrinal and unsubstantiated--except through the crucifixion. People suffer and live miserable lives--so, I would not argue with that at all. Some people NEVER believe-still suffer and live miserable lives--

I know you didn't ask me, but to spare myself- a headache :) I would like to chime in. God makes the rain to fall on the just and unjust--the short answer is yes God does love all His creation. For God so loved the world. . . . . . God gives those who don't believe-families=food-homes--common grace. It is His nature--He is good. Even Vp enjoyed life while here. Did you ever wonder why God says don't worry about the wealthy. . . . They have their portion here. But saying to an unbeliever-God loves you and has a plan for you, your life can be happy with money--Christians are prosperous, healthy. --it is misleading. Jesus said we would lose our lives to follow Him--We would pick up our cross daily. If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.” (Lu 9:23) 2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. "If we tell the unbelievers that God intimately loves them, repentance is not needed, as God loves them anyway! But they say, “God loves the sinners but hate the sin.” If God loves the sinners why does God send sinners to hell for eternity? God punishes the sinner in hell. The God of the Bible will not compromise because he is infinitely holy, if God is not holy then there will be no hell as he will wink at every sinner and give them bear hugs to all sinners." John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. But yes God does love His creation--He doesn't make something not to love it. He is good. It is His nature to love. However, there is still a hell and judgement. He proclaimed His love to us at the cross. He loves so much He gave His Son for all. That is love and to reject Him is to bring God's wrath upon onesself. He is love --He is Holy--He is just. He gives us every chance to believe. Even nature proclaims Him. God loves all His creation--you just have to understand that it is not a free pass into eternity--God is who He is and has made a way--we can't make up a new one and ride the wave. It is His ballgame--His rules--His field--His call. --He doesn't compromise. :) Rascal--I couldn't think of a smarter way to live and just consider ---we don't lead ourselves to God--You are a smart cookie!!

I just want to share something with you Rascal. God is able to save to the uttermost. He is not limited by our understanding--He is able. I talk about God, and point things out because the fear(reverence) of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. We were exposed to some pretty dark stuff in TWI. God truly is Love. He loves us with a love that is mind blowing. Just contemplate Him giving us His Son and making that sacrifice . . .it shows us that love. It is important to ponder why we need it. It helps lead us to repentance before a Holy God. VP was VP and made his own choices. We too can make ours. You may have thought you made that choice once, and perhaps you did, but a revisit never hurts. You can't get a more full or satisfying life--there is none like Him. But I don't recognize the God of TWI anymore-meaning He is nothing like the Lord I now know. God is not a fool--or made in our imagination. The real thing is enough, but is not mocked. He will accept us with open arms. Even when we wonder into bad spots--He will lead us back. So, although I don't mind a little fire and brimstone to catch someones attention. We need it. What waits at the otherside is an opened arm invitation to you. You are seeing all this for a reason. I have traveled this similar path. It is sometimes an ugly journey--but when you reach the end--there is God. Well worth the trip. Someone on another thread aptly said--how far down do you want to peel this onion? Smart. Jesus is the answer--and He is so amazing--words truly do fail me. I cannot express to you His greatness, and the joy there is in knowing Him. Don't despair--He will keep you, He is able. Geisha

Hi Pond, I am going to lay this out for you as starkly as possible-I am going to assume you do not understand that which you mock, and I am going to reach out to you. I said VPW "came out of the church"--not "belongs to the church". You twist my words yet again to make your point. You learned this somewhere and you should stop and consider where. It is beneath you. The fact that he came out of a Christian denomination should be a WARNING to you. He LEFT the church to start his own religion. Why do I say this? It is so simple now, but once it was not so clear. JESUS. To not accept Jesus for who He tells us He is and create a new one(man only)is a very SERIOUS offence against God. It is what John calls the Spirit of anti-Christ. John wanted people to be saved----the salvation Jesus offers us depends upon his UNIQUE identity. Salvation is being reconciled to God by being forgiven for the guilt of our sins. Our sins can be forgiven only through the death of God’s Son. His Son has to be both a sinless human (in order to die for sinful humans) and fully divine (in order to pay for all of our sins). Only Jesus lived a perfect life to qualify to lay his life down for our sins. Only Jesus claimed to be God so that his death could extend complete forgiveness to all people who are willing to receive his offer. By creating a new Jesus you are rejecting this offer. You are saying God's sacrifice is not right or good enough. Jesus has come in the flesh is VERY important. What about VP. Was he a false teacher that the bible talks about? YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!! With all this talk about forgivness-we should really stop and look at what God says about them.They are very DANGEROUS men. It may give you pause to rethink some of the things you seem to cling to, and a new perspective on what this means. First, we should be able to recognize them. This is hard because they come as WOLVES in sheeps clothing. They have the right terminology and use the bible to back their claims. We know them by their fruits. What kind of life do they lead? Is it moral, or do they place themselves above God's law and practice immorality, claiming no connection between spirituality and sin. Are they given to drunkeness-honest with money, are they adultrous? Some even use sex as a way to spiritual enlightenment. What Jesus do they preach? Do they teach contempt for others-or justify this kind of judgement? Do they preach an ear tingling gospel? What you want to hear? Is the focus on the CROSS for salvation? We have a pretty good picture here of VP. Which is why the apologists for him--cast doubt on the stories told. If they are true and revealed--people will see VP for who he really was. Once you know you must consider what he taught you. "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not" (2 Peter 2:1-3). There are no more prophets among us--but there are false teachers. There judgment was already set. They bring to us damnable heresies!! What does that mean?? Could it mean heresies that lead to damnation? They deny the Lord that paid the price for them. Are you denying Him too? WHY? For what? Is a false gospel worth defending? NO the truth is. "False teachers do what the devil did with the scripture when he quoted it to Jesus. They quote true things and lift them out of their context. There is always a curve or twist in the pitch. They promise a quick fix for the emergencies of life when God works with the person slowly to get his purposes done. Discounting an intervention of a miracle from his hands, God is teaching us patience endurance and certainly Godly knowledge as he walks us through this life of trials." We have a great deal to consider "We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will" Do we forgive them? Does God? If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[ and again, "The Lord will judge his people."It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. It is a what?? DREADFUL or warm and fuzzy thing to fall into the hands of the living God!! There is NO MORE sacrifice if you know the truth and turn away!! VP came out of the Church and seminary?? He knew the truth. His fate was already written about. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. I am done--I was going to talk about the sin unto death--but I am done. Look it up if you want.

Hi Rascal-- Yes, I so agree, it does bear a humble examination. If we just assume these lecherous, vile, abusers, Who Executed GREAT EVIL, taught us the deep and meaningful truths of God--we are not even using plain common sense. Perhaps they were not the humble and meek, whom God gives Himself to, so maybe it was twisted truths--lies. Including the "BIGGIES". There are some very sobering things in the bible we cannot just "Spin" away, and say "My God is love." Don't get me wrong. . . HE IS, He loves us RIGHTLY, but, He is also JUST(THANK GOD FOR MERCY), Righteous, Holy, and expects obedience. He is worthy of it, so it is no less than He deserves. He doesn't ask anything of us we are unable to give or that He is not worthy of. That is why grace is so important--we can mess up in our OBEDIENCE-God looks on the heart. Grace is not a free-for-all, lets party cause we are covered. That is a perversion of God's grace. His love and our idea of what love should be may differ. His love is right, and a much loftier deeper version than that of TWI spin. He expects us to love as He does. How can we love Him back if we don't know Him as He is? How can we love His ways and desire to walk in His statutes, if we minimize Him to a warm and fuzzy, "Waiter in the sky". We are His servants--He is God. The God of the Bible calls some of His saints to martyrdom. Now, how does that fit with the warm and fuzzy version? The God of the bible chastens all that He loves--but He is so worthy and so awesome and so amazing--we learn and grow from this and it is such a deep relationship that we end up thanking Him and asking for more. Don't get me wrong, it is not fun, but it is fulfilling. He fills us and it is enough in whatever circumstance we find ourselves in. I know I kinda ramble--but God is just beyond words. His ways are addictive!!LOL :) We learn about the unforgivable sin in Jesus' dealings with the Pharisees. Although there are differing ideas on if it can be committed now, it is a sobering thought none-the-less. Jesus knew the difference in these men and the heart of the sinner who was burdened by their sin. He called them what they were. We should have NO problem calling VP what he was. For me VPW is what the bible talks about. I am more hesitant to call LCM anything. Not because I don't think he did what is said here, but I look at his life now and I have hope for him. He has been ripped from TWI and fallen from a great height. Oddly enough, that makes me think that maybe God is afoot in his life. I hold out hope and prayers he will repent. He has been humbled and it SEEMS God is working. I could be wrong, but I still pray for him. Never to minimize or to dismiss the pain he has caused. It is because I don't want to see ANYONE spend an eternity from God. A more horrible thing is not even to be contemplated and forgivness is our calling. I just ask on his behalf and let God deal with it. VPW came out of the church--out from among us. Scary huh? Probably more than you wanted to hear--hope I didn't overstep!:) I just really love to talk about God. He is life--not about life--He is lfe :) :)

Hi Kim, T here--not the regular Geisha-- I am her husband. I know you Kimberly. Sorry, S. Baptist is not a cult. It is a denomination. BIG difference. If you learned about Jesus Christ there, I am sure you learned about a different Jesus in The Way. I KNOW you did. If you don't believe that Jesus is God than The Way Intl DID take that from you, or you never understood it to begin with.( I seem to remember you said you never believed it) That is what makes a cult a cult Kimberly, who they teach Jesus is. If I were you I would head back to the Southern Baptist as fast as your feet can take you. Denominations differ on some things, but all teach Jesus crucified. Jesus is God. That is what makes them CHRISTIAN denominations, more in common than NOT. Jesus is the center of ALL Christianity. The Way taught a DIFFERENT Jesus which is WHY it is a CULT. It has always been like that. It is called HERESY. Hope all is well with you. T Removed the last part--not the place for it.

Fair enough--I have a lazy Saturday and am just hanging out--but I understand busy. I kindly laid out the gospel message to you and you boil it down to an odd rationalization about God killing Himself. BTW-I worship Jesus. I guess we can chuck all of Romans and that pesky OT for the kinder---gentler--warm and fuzzy version. Be careful not to reject out of hand the gospel of salvation--the one Paul preached--for a more comfortable fit. This thread started by asking why Jesus treated some one way and others another??? This is why. This is EXACTLY why. Vp taught us a false gospel. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for something similar--Paul called the false teachers of his day servants of satan. They knew that this stuff robbed people of the narrow gate. Take Care Pond--I hope for you the very best God has to give---Himself.

Hi Pond, Yes, He had a choice. I never said He didn't. That is what makes it more precious. What does it mean to you--when you hear that God has ordained something? Just curious. My tone is soft and kind--no malice. I know that is hard to get online, so I want to let you know that upfront. I never said God MURDERED His Son. You are putting words there that are not there. I said the more accepted explanation would be God killed Him. I now realize that was QUITE the wrong way to word this. But, boiling it down --- bear in mind God is sovereign---who sacrificed Him? Did we make that call while dead in sins and offer up a perfect sacrifice? Why did He have to be sacrificed? Not the easy answer "because of our sins" But, why does a God who created us require a sacrifice? He required them of Israel--He required one for us. . . Why? What was the purpose? Whose plan of redemption was it? If God made us Pond, what is it about Him that makes us so unworthy on our own? Why is sin such a big deal? It was God's plan His purpose. Adam--all of it. . . . this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. The act itself was carried out by evil men--still held responsible for their actions,I agree, but it was the providence of God, His redemptive plan----Pond. I know you don't like it--you think I make God scary--and in many respects He is. Not that we must be afraid of Him--but, we must recognize who He is. --God is not a warm and fuzzy. . . . . . He is God The frame for me is love as well. If you have a hard time recognizing that God would sacrifice His perfect Son for a bunch of worthless sinners(you are right we are) You may be missing out on the INCREDIBLE love --God is capable of and has for you. Think about it. If you don't believe that God(Jesus) stepped into time from eternity to make this sacrifice then I do understand how it might make God look scary. I think it makes it amazing. If you don't understand that Jesus is eternal--there with God always--and not a created being. These are hard concepts--I get that. Jesus with His last few dying breaths saw to the care of His mother. He is truly amazing and reveals to us God. It wasn't a crapshoot for Jesus--He knew who He was and His purpose. Do you believe that God poured out His wrath on Jesus? Do you believe that God has wrath? Or why? Have you ANY concept at all about what that would be like? No man could withstand that Pond. No man can see His full glory. Moses had to wear a veil after seeing the back of God's glory. His glowing face was too much for the children of Israel. Can I ask you one more thing? Do you see the way God used the evil acts of men for good--His providence, His purpose? For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done I know you don't like it--this is why I judge Vp as evil I do. Take Care :) :) :)

I was responding to "Another Dan" your post was clear as a bell--I was agreeing with you. :) Geisha