geisha779

Ooops forgot to vote ....and just wanted to add that I led several people into SIT when I was in TWI. The funny thing is....they were fence sitters as far as accepting Jesus as Lord(even by TWI lax standards). It didn't stop them from stringing a bunch of malaka ca cas together and SIT. If it is a sign that one is born again than apparently confession and belief is out the window. I have to say....I fall into the camp that thinks it was really a mass delusion. Sorry.....nothing personal against anyone, but come on....still? Really?

I have to break my GSC moratorium to comment. I have been watching this thread in complete fascination..... the "Prophetic" voice here coupled with the self-proclaimed and named Apostle in the doctrinal forum and it is almost just a bit too morbidly entertaining. First off....hey...I LIED! I have no problem getting it out there. I can REMEMBER rehearsing in my head in case I was called on for interpretation or prophecy. It wasn't malicious.... it was more like.....oh crap...I gotta be ready. My tongues? I really don't know what that was or where it came from. Glossolalia? That is not really a satisfying explanation and it is somewhat redundant as SIT is glossolalia. I just know I have not done it in years and will not do it. I think it has little to do with God and more to do with the "other" spirit spoken of in Corinthians. Maybe not....but, I don't believe what we learned in TWI comes from God. My advice would simply echo that of many other Christians who would tell you....if you learned in TWI stop doing it. I thought for a minute T&O was going to break it open here and give a scriptural end to the conversation, but as he/she alluded.....in scripture....they were speaking languages other people understood. It was an evangelical tool so to speak. It was meant for a sign!!! Another person, Raf I think, mentioned that Corinthians proclaims that you can do it. I don't believe that is what Corinthians actually implies. Paul is reproving a church that coveted gifts. What I truly think Paul is saying is....to a people coming from a Pagan background where they probably did practice Glossolalia or it was in their heritage.... and who were coveting tongues . . .Yeah, sure it would be great if everyone spoke in tongues, but even better if everyone could prophesy . . . . . but, I don't want you coveting gifts . . . . .not everyone has the same gift. . . . hey, it would be great if we all had miracles and healing too. . . . but, the better thing for you to be coveting is love.(I copied myself from the the Thus Saith Paul thread) I don't think the scriptures ever meant everyone could or would speak in tongues. It is a gift not a manifestation of the spirit. When the church was being established, sure it makes sense that there were these things going on. Now....not so much. I am not a cessationist but tongues is probably pretty rare and if God has a purpose for it than I imagine it will genuinely pop up when needed. We have the record in Acts 8 of Simon trying to buy the power......I think Peter's response was "let your money rot with you....not "sure, sign this green card, fork over the dough, and you too can have this power." As far as the bullying on this thread? Yeah it does seem kind of like bullying....but when confronted with the facts it can feel like that. What the really interesting thing about this thread is as that it highlights just how susceptible and weak willed many of us were. IMO if you think answered prayer is the proof SIT true......you missed the boat. Muslims have prayers answered. Mormons have prayers answered, most people at one time will have a prayer answered. God is gracious and good.....don't confuse that with a sign that what you paid for in PFAL is from God.

Really Roy? You make peace by calling me out to publicly humiliate me and by calling me hateful and self-righteous? I would really hate to see what you do when you are angry and vindictive. How much must you think of your own words to let a simple comment fester to the boiling point that we have to do this? You have broken almost every forum rule that is posted......you called Socks a liar, prideful, and a whole host of other personal slams.....you accused WW of letting religion get in his way because he defended Socks.....and now this. Goal accomplished....I am so totally creeped out and so uncomfortable that I highly doubt I will even read here again....let alone post. You got me back good for saying many of your posts go ignored and I wanted to check in with you....you forgot that I also said it hurt my heart for you. By the way... you said so yourself!! It is not my fault people don't listen to your YouTubes or respond to many of your posts....now I know why. Can you stop now? Just leave me out of your posts....I don't want anything to do with you....you have effectively chased me off the internet. You actually frighten me.

Roy, I left the Way on my own, I wasn't kicked out......and one of the things I will never do again is pretend to agree to something or feign respect for a POV I don't respect. Why should I....I don't actually believe that is loving. I read it....listened....gave it due consideration because that is respectful....and then I disagreed. You can't force me or shame me into accepting or respecting your atheist friend's POV.....but, that doesn't mean I am hateful or rude.. I can think for myself now....I am free that way. We don't have to agree......or consider all things equally valid. When we disagree......it doesn't mean the world is coming to an end. I wasn't mocking you.....but, I don't think I will convince you of that unless I agree with you and confess to whatever it is you are looking for. It is not going to happen. I am finished defending myself. I am also not going to apologize for having a voice. No one has to like it.....or agree, but I have found my voice after years and years of replacing it with group think. I guard it now. Although you have called me hateful, prideful, and assumed several erroneous things about me.....called GSC a cult. . . . that still doesn't mean I harbor any ill will toward you or am angry with you in any way. I am truly not, so there is nothing to forgive from my perspective. You are entitled to think and believe what you will. I truly am sorry your feelings were hurt, and I hope you work whatever it is out in your life that you need to. Come here or go...it is up to you, only you know what you need to do for yourself. But, when you put something out there for discussion Roy, it may get discussed. Good luck brother.....I really wish you nothing but the best.

I am really sorry. With all that life throws at us....a little wave, smile, and some milk of human kindness is not a great deal to ask. I bet the atheists you know.....are more than caring. Being raised in that cesspool can't be easy though....it must be so confusing once these kids get out into the world and see that things are not so black and white. It was a shock to me and I wasn't raised in a cult....imagine all your formative years dominated by TWI. It must be difficult to reconcile what they see with what they have been taught to believe. You are right though...if you don't laugh it would make you cry.

I wrote that Roy.....no need to hold my name back....I didn't say anything wrong. I was trying to be kind. It was in response to you calling Socks prideful and then you called me prideful.......I think you also said Socks had gone "all Way ministry" then too. It was in response to you telling Socks it would be better if he didn't say anything at all. All because you didn't like the way he articulated his response. I was explaining to you why we initially posted. You put us on the defensive. Now I think you are calling me hateful. Why do you make things so personal? Guess my feelings don't really matter, as long as you feel better coming here and calling me names. I wasn't trying to save you but, have a conversation with you. I was trying to let you know I was thinking of you. I am sorry your feelings got so hurt....but you simply could have asked me what I meant....on the forum or by PM. Just to add Roy, I respect you enough to believe you are more than capable of being accountable for your words.

I hope you don't think I was attempting to reprove you.....I was speaking collectively about TWI and I don't think posting a question about evil spirits on a forum where we all share a similar history and understanding .....qualifies as glorifying the devil. Weird things happen. If you want to hear an interesting take on things like spirits and giants and the like ......there is an ex-twi guy... hubby and I once caught on Coast to Coast. We were driving home late and this guy came on and we thought he must be ex-way. Sure enough....we looked him up and Rome City is on his resume. I don't remember him from TWI, but maybe others do....Dr. Patrick Heron. He wrote a book ... Nephilim and the Pyramids. The Coast to Coast he was on is still on YouTube. If nothing else, it is fascinating to listen to his take on things, and he does talk about devil spirits. <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/onWHkJO0m3M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

What a really smart observation. The scriptures don't say a great deal about Satan......they say enough to make us aware and really no more than that. We are to be aware, not to be ignorant of his ways and resist. God doesn't give Satan a great deal of PR and what we can take from that is that our response should also be proportional. Satan is not to be our focus or fascination. I am not really sure where TWI got all their information on the devils kingdom or methods, but I do know that much of what they say and believe doesn't come from the scriptures. Not without a great deal of reading into them with the wrong focus. Imagine what they miss with such a skewed vision? Satan fell from heaven because he wanted prominence. TWI simply gives him what he wants.....

Please don't get me wrong...I absolutely believe you.....I grew up with a Mom who dabbled in all kinds of things and we always had weird things happening. While I was in TWI I had strange things happen, but all has been quiet for a long time. :) I believe the scriptures, so I do believe it is a spiritual world. My gut reaction is to reassure and look for a more palatable explanation. Who wants to believe they have been visited by demons? There are kids with missing chromosomes, and depending on what is missing....they can look like you described. It is very sad.

Well, it is a good thing that God doesn't require cat sacrifice then.......and that He has already provided the perfect sacrifice in the person of Jesus Christ. Reducing the gospel and faith down to mocking and silliness is nothing new......I just know I don't have to be a part of it.

Maybe the kids had a genetic disorder or hereditary disease that causes facial disfigurement. It is rare, but very possible. Poorly lit rooms have shadows and light can play funny tricks....as well as our minds when we are in unfamiliar or eerie settings. Was there a candle lit? Shadows bounce like crazy in candlelight. I am not doubting you had experiences or saying I know what they were, but more times than not there are plausible explanations. Personally, I think you are more likely to find the devil hiding himself in the pulpit or behind a smile than at a seance or in a darkly lit room.

I am really glad you found it useful. It kind of supports what you articulated in your initial post.....with God providing the sacrifice for atonement. Of course, He was the first to do this with Adam.....but it explains, at least the point, if not the why God used blood sacrifice. The other thing to remember is that people ate of the sacrifice...it served a dual purpose. I eat meat and I give thanks. Taking certain objections to their logical end......did the steak I ate last night really have a choice? I don't know if that is harvesting souls for my benefit, but it did nourish mine! Oddly, I feel little guilt about that or the broccoli ripped up in its prime to provide the vitamins and calcium I need for nourishment. Some things are provided for our benefit and God provided the sacrifice used for their benefit......not his.

Everything in TWI is spiritualized (is that even a real word?). Just about everything has some secret meaning ....right down to how you keep your house and the dust under your bed. I think being abusive took on a spiritual meaning, just not the one you would think. Remember, with the TWI mindset you have to play opposite Wednesday. I don't think it was considered abusive.....but admirable. How do you ever understand that?

Warning....this song will stick in your head. <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aEDpIfNdDE8" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

I truly don't mean to be inflammatory here Excathedra, but, I do want to point out that not understanding those verses in their context or what Jesus is saying when He warns of false teachers.....is what allowed me to be manipulated with scripture in the first place. Jesus also tells us to judge correctly. How do we do that without correct information? I don't believe that God created evil or that evil is a tangible thing......I think it is the absence of good......it comes in degrees. Evil, when it is hidden behind the facade of good or religion is one of the most insidious ways people are robbed and hurt. It can be confusing and since it is so cloaked it isn't always obvious. Hearing the end result of people's experiences with TWI is a real red flag and probably enough to warn new people off, but for some, who got so caught up in the religion of TWI, their doctrine, their mindset......finding out where good is really absent can be healing. It can also be a recipe for some messy and confrontational discussion, but I don't think that is always a bad thing.

For the most part I do have a one sided view about TWI.....the only redeeming thing I can take from my time is the people. I don't regret the people, well, most of the people. There are a few I would like to get into a closed room and have a word with but mostly...I remember the people fondly. And I believe that ex-way people are extraordinary. Especially those, who after all that propaganda about adversity.....deal so graciously when life comes at them. If you think about it ...it is pretty amazing.

If you are interested .....read Leviticus 17....it might help to shed some light.

I have seen you and Ham hijack more than one thread with a long series of silly and unrelated posts. I can count the minutes until the requisite unrelated Beatles or old blues song is posted and no thread is complete without a vaguely related cartoon or two from you. It is never long after Johniam posts that you don't follow with some kind of shallow critique on his methods and reference to what ever fallacy you can find or build into his post. It is almost guaranteed you will be the next post. Are those your tactics to take a thread off course? Why don't you engage him on the contents of his posts or just let them stand? They are incredibly effective in exposing what TWI theology produces in a persons life in regard to faith and Godliness.

Bad theology dishonors God....it just does and it hurts people. What could these guys be thinking embracing this kind of theology? I know in TWI we had an unhealthy obsession with the devil ......who we found lurking in books and dust bunnies....but what you describe in CES is even more extreme. People buy into this? I don't mean to derail your thread, but I find myself uncomfortably fascinated. What do they believe again? As for the rest....I don't know why God required a blood sacrifice....He could have required anything, but He had to be satisfied. Only God knows what would cover or satisfy Him and why and only God could provide the sacrifice needed..... which is why He provided the covering for Adam. He provided the sacrifice for the sins of all men in Jesus Christ. Adam's sin seperated him from God and look how bad it got just a generation later.....murder, envy.....all kinds of things going on. God didn't require Cain's life.....but marked him for protection. If it is a life for a life then God let that one slide. I doubt God was influenced by Hammurabi's code and as you say an eye for an eye was a good deterrent. The sacrifice isn't really for God's benefit.....He doesn't need anything from us.....the sacrifice is mercifully provided by Him for us so that we can be reconciled. Not the other way around. Some people call what Adam did spiritual death so I guess what you say makes sense as long as you factor in that God is yet again providing, being merciful and has done it for our benefit .... not His. God is perfectly perfect in Himself and needs nothing from us. That He desires a relationship with us and that He provided a way that would satisfy justice speaks to Him.

That is it exactly! Sister Wives meets Lawrence Welk. Apparently the pioneering efforts of women like Raquel Welch or Ann Margret....who are both still drop dead gorgeous in their 70's....was missed at HQ.

What is with up with the Sister Wives look they all have? Not trying to be mean at all...or petty, but I saw a recent photo of someone I know who is still in TWI and she has that same look. What is that?

I actually didn't mean to correct you....I was responding to Ham. To be honest, after my past experience with you on this forum.....I would never dare engage you by correcting you. As Job understood it.....the Lord gives and the Lord takes away....blessed be the name of the Lord. But, I guess I don't really understand your question because I don't believe, with the exception of Enoch, that God does keep us from seeing death or from pain and suffering. Jesus went so far as to promise it. I think God did add a few years to some depressed King's life...his name escapes me....but, everyone is appointed once to die and no one escapes pain in this life. Jesus, the only truly innocent servant suffered a horrible and humiliating death. Is it when they died that is in question? How they died? Or is it why they died? People die for stupid reasons everyday....people die tragically.....people die too early. To have your life and death reveal God's glory......if even just to one lost soul......that doesn't seem worthy to you? Are you asking if that is a waste of life? Here we are discussing and examining it all these years later. I sense that it all comes down to what you believe about God and His righteousness and glory. Proving Job was a good guy isn't the point of the story....God is the point. Job never did anything wrong that we can see....but he still ended up repenting before God. Why do you think that is? He never cursed God, he never foolishly charged God...he properly grieved...... he kept his faith. Yet, when he saw God......he still repented. He saw something that made him want to keep silent.

Naten, Take any Christian doctrine.....pretend it is opposite day and you have TWI theology. Most of it is backward.....just about everything you believe as a Christian...is either despised by TWI or so mangled it is unrecognizable. They have some of the same verbiage, but for the most part....it means something different. The damage that was done by their teaching on when life begins will probably not be known until they stand and give an account. I lived in places while in TWI where abortion was common place. Even multiple abortions. Wish I was kidding. I am not sure when it was said.....but, I remember hearing whispers that the Jesus or name of Jesus used in churches was a "devil spirit" . Something along those lines anyway...it was a long time ago. We used to mock the trinity. Sang mocking songs about it. If you want to see flames shoot out of a hard core TWIer's head....just tell them the dead ARE alive....Jesus(leave off the Christ) is God......and the Holy Spirit has a personality and is a person. Use that word person. Flash them a cross......and tell them what it means to you.......and just step back. Maybe they have mellowed, but back when I was in TWI....those were fighting words.

Me too! Very helpful info!! Thanks! I know that E.W Keynon is considered the father of the Word of Faith movement and spawned converts like Kenneth Hagin and Copeland..... right on down to Benny Hinn. Teachers you want to avoid. VP and the people he "borrowed" from are the reason I tossed the baby, the water, and the tub. There is way too much to sift through to find the few possible bits of truth mixed in with the rest.

I don't know if Job is fiction or not, but Satan did demand to sift Peter....I think that verse in Luke indicates all the disciples actually. As difficult as it is to be sifted......it reveals our faith and it teaches us. As painful as it can be.......it beats being ignored and left with a misguided faith. Sifting serves a purpose. The scriptures don't use mild words in regard to faith......tested as fire....trials, tribulation, suffering, persecution, being purified, perfected, martyrs......Jesus said to count the cost and that there would be suffering. How we ignored all that and focused on a few verses reveals what kind of faith we were embracing IMO. If our faith fails in the midst of trial ....... it is God's grace, goodness, and mercy at work in revealing that to us. We can pray for saving faith.