geisha779

Tom, I love Sundays! You seem to have a quandry here. Hope you can work it out. Please don't try and censor me with skewed logic or a straw man. There is nothing precluding you from posting anywhere you wish. Hit the ignore button when it comes to me. If you would like to post your views on the trinity thread--after all, it is what you think--not is it true--please do so. I invite you with a solem promise to IGNORE you. This little drama is tiresome. If you don't like what I say--politely refute me. I don't mind. Just don't pounce and get nasty. OR ignore me. We could however, be big boys and girls and not run from opposition. OR we could get some common ground. Here is what I just posted on the trinity thread--see if you can work within this framework. If not--sorry. BTW---this all smacks of censorship. Having questions about something is different than having doubts about it. We all have questions. That does not preclude us from being accepted by Christ. Never. It is a journey and none of us have all our doctrines in order even after we accept Him and He us. A doubt can be different--we are unsure something is the way it is--a commitment doesn't spring from doubt. Giving ones life to Christ is a commitment. A rejection is the clear indication that we have accepted the doubt. Questions-doubt-rejection--these are all different animals--it is good to examine our doubts before they become flat out rejections. Our questions we bring humbly to Him to be answered in His time. That is what makes the journey so fun.

Having questions about something is different than having doubts about it. We all have questions. That does not preclude us from being accepted by Christ. Never. It is a journey and none of us have all our doctrines in order even after we accept Him and He us. A doubt can be different--we are unsure something is the way it is--a commitment doesn't spring from doubt. Giving ones life to Christ is a commitment. A rejection is the clear indication that we have accepted the doubt. Questions-doubt-rejection--these are all different animals--it is good to examine our doubts before they become flat out rejections. Our questions we bring humbly to Him to be answered in His time. That is what makes the journey so fun.

You may be right Bill, it is ringing some bells in the back of my brain--truth be told--I am too lazy to look into it. I pulled that little bit from 2 years of Middle Eastern History as an undergrad---ages ago. Money well spent huh? Now if we want to discuss 19th century British History-I may be able to summon a bit more--but maybe not. I was thinking more of the Jewish people. They were allowed to keep their faith and did prosper under some Islamic rule--they were "people of the book", but taxes and rules DOES ring a bell. As Jews were driven out of most places--many were glad to have a place to land for a bit. there was great unrest and lawlessness as well. Sulyman riding through the gates on a big white horse comes to mind--elusive but there. LOL :) Ooooops sorry about the smiley face.

The trinity a be all and end all? Considering it is a word used to describe the nature of God--just a word--than yes it is, but be that as it may. You built a huge drama for yourself over a quick glance at what was said--twisted it --assigned it to SOMEONE ELSE--ME!! And did EXACTLY what I said is done. AND why DID you jump all up in my husband's face on that other thread?? I am with Sunesis--Knock it off! I could care less if you believe in the divinty of Christ. Might make it awful hard to talk about who he is, but I am NOT stopping you from trying. I might even join you if my trinitarian stink can be abided. Just to clarify a bit--The reasons those were the only two options he gives is--he doesn't even consider the other options as valid?? Given the bible and all. Most sound bible teachers and great Christian thinkers(C.S. Lewis being one) don't entertain more gnostiv POV's. BTW----It is the CLASSIC C.S. Lewis argument.

WOW==I love this post. Muslims--or many will tell you that it is the same God. It all stems from the same faith Judaism--hence many of the big battles. I too have gotten to know muslims and had very similar experiences. I have Christian friends who will pray with Muslims--I am not there though. It wasn't always war between Muslim and Jew--not always conversion by the sword either--that is why the people of the book thing was so important. Many times Muslims would take over places and the people were glad because they restored order and allowed "People of the book" to retain their faith and fully participate in society. People prospered and were protected. Different sects are the issue--even today. Thanks Dan!!

Hi Tom, Wow, just saw your post and in order to avoid a great big long one, I won't quote you--I will just answer you from the heart. You seem like a guy who can relate to the heart. First off-I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote that. I was actually thinking of Rhino-- I felt blindsided last night about the Muslim issue. I have shared this with some people--but I would like to tell you. I am engaged with people of other faiths regularly--people I love. When Rhino implied something about terrorism I felt blindsided. I found it very offensive, and a generalization that was based in ignorance--almost to the point of . . . . well--you get it. I am a Christian--if I wanted to be a Muslim--I would--if I wanted to be Jewish I would--if I wanted to be a unitarian I would. If I wanted to be Pagan I would But, I do have people I care about who ARE other things. I don't change my faith to please them--nor they theirs to please me--but we do talk--and relate and care for each other. As for you and our limited interaction--well, something written for me to see next time I looked--A sweet little thing plugged in by hubby to put a smile on my face was mocked. I thought it a bit over reactive. I just stopped going to that thread after that. Have not been back. Why would I? That stung quite a bit. If I can't point out to you my considerations---I have been in the church for years now--my perspective is different--without offending you and apparently leaving a wake of destruction in my path--One, I am not to good at making my point, and two you must not be sold out to your faith. If that hurts your feelings--I hope you are never called to defend Him in a more meaningful way. There are people on this planet that would kill you if you didn't renounce Him. Seems you are politely or not so--asking me to leave so you can talk without an opposing view. . I am not stopping you from saying what you want--nor did I address the post you are commenting on to you. I have not addressed you at all until your mocking post--then I left.--you have sought me. And seem to now be trying to correct me. Perhaps we can come to an understanding? As for talking about who He is--there is NOTHING I like more--or actually do like more--I think we have all had enough in TWI about telling people who He is not. I know I was filled to the eyeballs with it--without the slightest clue as to who He really is and how He would totally change my life. I never knew a love like this or thought I could love someone so much as I love Him. It would be a great honor to talk to you about Him. A true pleasure. Let's have some fun and talk about the love of our lives--Jesus Christ! BTW--that was C.S. LEWIS I was quoting in the trinity thread, it wasn't me--I am not that smart--I just really love to read him.

Hi Garth I agree it is a limited perspective. My point was more to illustrate Muslims perception and the differences they draw between two outside views of Christianity. I think your other points are good. I actually never claimed a large group of unitarians converted to Islam--that was written by a Muslim. I just pointed out it is easier from the unitarian position, but then again anyone can convert. As for people like Dr. Juedes--I agree with your statement--my point exactly on another thread. To each his own. Don't be sorry. WaySider, That one stung a bit, but in truth you have a valid observation. Islam is a lifestyle--but, you know as well as I that Christianity is too. However, given the Ted Haggards--VP -- Swaggart--Bakker--et al. Not a debate I am likely to win. I would just point you to a more loving and active body of believers--my best bet would be out of the US though. Cynic, Where have you been?? Don't stay away so long.

I have to go soon, but I just wanted to say this--I said AFTER being told the truth by Billy Grahm a child would see it--Are you not the one who complains about being misquoted? I just wanted to share a bit more with you on the comparisons--but your last statement makes me wonder if we were in the same TWI--Gosh, I chased down a bunch of nuns once to call them idolators!! I kid you not--we had songs on this topic--it was a big part of our identity. I was a NUT on this topic. Imagine how hard it was for me to come to another understanding. Which is why Pawtuckets post spoke to me. What is the reason Christians appear dogmatic on this? What is it that they believe that makes this such an important issue to their faith? It is so simple--just as we believed it was idolatry--Christians believe it is a denial of God, a big one, but still have great love for unitarians. Like Pastor Juedes. Here is a better breakdown for you and why it makes it an interesting topic: You may or may not really care--so don't worry--just a cut and paste. Written by a Muslim ISLAM 1. Do Muslims believe he was a Messenger of One God? YES Belief in all of the Prophets and Messengers of God is a fundamental article of faith in Islam. Thus, believing in Prophets Adam, Jesus, Moses, and Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them) is a requirement for anyone who calls him or herself a Muslim. A person claiming to be a Muslim who, for instance, denies the Messengership of Jesus, is not considered a Muslim. The Quran says in reference to the status of Jesus as a Messenger: The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!" (Quran 5:75). 2. Do Muslims believe he was born of a Virgin Mother? YES Like Christians, Muslims believe Mary, Maria in Spanish, or Maryam as she is called in Arabic, was a chaste, virgin woman, who miraculously gave birth to Jesus. "Relate in the Book the story of Mary, when she withdrew from her family, to a place in the East. She screened herself from them; then We sent to her Our spirit (angel Gabriel) and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said: I seek refuge from you in God Most Gracious (come not near) if you do fear God. He said: Nay, I am only a Messenger from your Lord, to announce to you the gift of a pure son. She said: How shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me, and I am not unchaste? He said: So it will be, your Lord says: ‘That is easy for Me; and We wish to appoint him as a sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It was a matter so decreed" (Quran 19:16-21). 3. Do Muslims believe Jesus had a miraculous birth? YES The Quran says: "She (Mary) said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.' He (God) said: ‘So (it will be) for God creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: ‘Be!'- and it is" (3:47). It should also be noted about his birth that: Verily, the likeness of Jesus in God's Sight is the likeness of Adam. He (God) created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!'-and he was" (Quran 3:59). 4. Do Muslims believe Jesus spoke in the cradle? YES "Then she (Mary) pointed to him. They said: ‘How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' He (Jesus) said: ‘Verily! I am a slave of God, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet; " (19:29-30). 5. Do Muslims believe he performed miracles? YES Muslims, like Christians believe Jesus performed miracles. But these were performed by the will and permission of God, Who has power and control over all things. "Then will God say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit (the angel Gabriel) so that you did speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold: you make out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and you breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by My leave, and you heal those born blind, and the lepers by My leave. And behold! you bring forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the children of Israel from (violence to you) when you did show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic' (5:110). 6. Do Muslims believe in the Trinity? NO Muslims believe in the Absolute Oneness of God, Who is a Supreme Being free of human limitations, needs and wants. He has no partners in His Divinity. He is the Creator of everything and is completely separate from His creation. God says in the Quran regarding the Trinity: "People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to God nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His command that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and in His Messengers, and do not say: ‘God is a Trinity.' Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. God is indeed just One God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. God is sufficient for a guardian" (Quran 4:171).7. Do Muslims believe that Jesus was the son of God? NO "Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4). The Quran also states: "Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be' and it is" (Quran 19:34-35). 8. Do Muslims believe Jesus was killed on the cross then resurrected? NO "And because of their saying, ‘We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God'- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely they killed him not (Jesus, son of Mary). But God raised him (Jesus) up unto Himself. And God is ever All-Powerful, All-Wise" (Quran 4:157-158). CHRISTIANITY 1. Do Christians believe Jesus was a human being and Messenger of God? YES & NO With the exception of Unitarian Christians, who like all the early followers of Jesus, still do not believe in the Trinity, most Christians now believe in the Divinity of Jesus, which is connected to the belief in Trinity. They say he is the second member of the Triune God, the Son of the first part of the Triune God, and at the same time "fully" God in every respect. 2. Do Christians believe he was born of a Virgin Mother? YES A chaste and pious human woman who gave birth to Jesus Christ, the second member of the Trinity, the Son of God, and at the same time "fully" God Almighty in every respect. Christians believe however, that while she was a virgin, she was married to a man named Joseph (Bible: Matthew:1:18). According to Matthew 1:25, Joseph "kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus". 3. Do Christians believe he had a miraculous birth? YES "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows. When His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit" (Bible: Matthew 1:18) 4. Do Christians believe he performed miracles? YES "And now, Lord, look upon their threats, and grant to thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness, while thou stretches out thy hand to heal, and sign and wonders are performed through the name of thy holy servant Jesus (Bible: Acts 4:30). Christians believe that Jesus performed these miracles because he was the Son of God as well as the incarnation of God. 5. Do Christians believe in the Trinity? YES With the exception of the Unitarian Christians, who do not believe in the Divinity of Christ, the Trinity, according to the Catholic encyclopedia, is the term used for the central doctrine of the Christian religion. The belief is that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three Persons or beings are distinct from each another, while being similar in character: uncreated and omnipotent. The First Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term mystery in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains "hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness" (Const., "De fide. cath.", iv). The First Vatican Council further defined that the Christian Faith contains mysteries strictly so called (can. 4). All theologians admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is of the number of these. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes that of all revealed truths, this is the most impenetrable to reason. 6. Do Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God? YES "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him (Bible: John 3:16). However, it is interesting to note that the term "son of God" is used in other parts of the Bible to refer to Adam (Bible: Luke 3:38), Israel (Bible: Exodus 4:22) and David (Bible: Psalms 2:7) as well. The creatures of God are usually referred to in the Bible as children of God. The role of Paul of Tarsus in shaping this belief and the belief in Trinity The notion of Jesus as son of God is something that was established under the influence of Paul of Tarsus (originally named Saul), who had been an enemy of Jesus, but later changed course and joined the disciples after the departure of Jesus. Later, however, he initiated a number of changes into early Christian teachings, in contradiction, for instance, to disciples like Barnabas, who believed in the Oneness of God and who had actually lived and met with Jesus. Paul is considered by a number of Christian scholars to be the father of Christianity due to his additions of the following ideas: that Jesus is the son of God, the concept of Atonement, the renunciation of the Law of the Torah. Paul did these things in hopes of winning over the Gentiles (non-Jewish people). His letters are another of the primary sources of information on Jesus according to the Christian tradition. The original followers of Prophet Jesus opposed these blatant misrepresentations of the message of Jesus. They struggled to reject the notion of the Divinity of Jesus for close to 200 years. One person who was an original follower of Jesus was Barnabas. He was a Jew born in Cyrus and a successful preacher of the teachings of Jesus. Because of his closeness to Jesus, he was an important member of the small group of disciples in Jerusalem who had had gathered together following the disappearance of Jesus. The question of Jesus's nature, origin and relationship with God was not raised amongst Barnabas and the small group of disciples. Jesus was considered a man miraculously endowed by God. Nothing in the words of Jesus or the events in his life led them to modify this view. The Gospel of Barnabas was accepted as a Canonical Gospel in the Churches of Alexandria till 325 CE Iranaeus (130-200) wrote in support of pure monotheism and opposed Paul for injecting into Christianity doctrines of the pagan Roman religion and Platonic philosophy. He quoted extensively from the Gospel of Barnabas in support of his views. This indicates that the Gospel of Barnabas was in circulation in the first and second centuries of Christianity. In 325 (CE), a council of Christian leaders met at Nicaea and made Paul's beliefs officially part of Christian doctrine. It also ordered that all original Gospels in Hebrew script which contradicted Paul's beliefs should be destroyed. An edict was issued that anyone in possession of these Gospels would be put to death. The Gospel of Barnabas has miraculously survived though. 7. Do Christians believe he was killed on the cross? YES This is a core Christian belief and it relates to the concept of atonement. According to this belief, Jesus died to save mankind from sin. However, this is not stated explicitly in the four gospels which form the primary source texts of Christianity. It is found, however, in Romans 6:8,9. Christians believe Jesus was spat on, cut, humiliated, kicked, striped and finally hung up on the cross to endure a slow and painful death. According, to Christian belief, the original sin of Adam and Eve of eating from the forbidden tree was so great that God could not forgive it by simply willing it, rather it was necessary to erase it with the blood of a sinless, innocent Jesus. Resurrection The four Gospels and the Epistles of St. Paul are the main sources of Christianity which discuss the Resurrection of Jesus after his crucifixion. According to St. Matthew, Jesus appeared to the holy women, and again on a mountain in Galilee. Mark's Gospel tells a different story: Jesus was seen by Mary Magdalene, by the two disciples at Emmaus, and the Eleven before his Ascension into heaven. Luke's Gospel says Jesus walked with the disciples to Emmaus, appeared to Peter and to the assembled disciples in Jerusalem. In John's Gospel, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene, to the ten Apostles on Easter Sunday, to the Eleven a week later, and to seven disciples at the Sea of Tiberias. Another account of the resurrection by St. Paul is found in Bible: Corinthians 15: 3-8. According to Christian belief, Resurrection is a manifestation of God's justice, Who exalted Christ to a life of glory, as Christ had humbled himself unto death (Phil., 2: 8-9). This event also completes the mystery of Christian salvation and redemption. The death of Jesus frees believers from sin, and with his resurrection, he restores to them the most important privileges lost by sin (Bible: Romans 4:25). More importantly, the belief in the resurrection of Jesus indicates Christian acknowledgment of Christ as the immortal God, the cause of believers' own resurrection (Bible: I Corinthians 4: 21; Phil., 3:20-21), as well as the model and the support of a new life of grace (Bible: Romans 4: 4-6; 9-11).

Rhino, Just to add--ironically Muslims use the same "Pagan" defense against the trinity as we used to. Or some still do--was that you Rhino? If you really look at their defense of "One God" you will hear loud echoes of TWI. That is not a slam--it is a fact. To add: If a belief system is similar it will be defended the same way. Nothing odd about that --it makes sense. Since it is a defense of "One God" it will use the same logic. They are both rooted in a staunch defense of monotheism. Just consider for a moment it has all come from the same source--differing takes.

Bill, that is what I heard. Be that as it may--I am glad this has been moved so I can really answer you. First you are so wrong in your assumption that it is peculiar for a Muslim to think that way--it has been that way for centuries. Or for a unitarian to convert to Islam because of this issue. Read your history. This(in bold) is written by a Muslim. Second, I never used it support a trinitarian view as it actually opposes it. Make some sense?? I found it interesting. You seem to bring a negative bias to the table here. Maybe that is why you were offended--your own assumptions. Maybe that is why you thought it was a fake trinitarian ruse. It offended and made no sense to you and you reacted before considering the topic. Unitarians being compare to Muslims seems bothersome to you as an insult. Look at this as two differing faiths being compared. Muslims are not all terrorists. There faith is considered by them, the final authority on the issue of God--stemming from the same source. It is more than reasonable for them to view unitarian Christians as misguided Muslims--The beliefs are similar in many ways. Historically, from the viewpoint of Islam, there has been a long association between Christian Unitarians and Muslims. Indeed when the seventh century Byzantine Emperor Heraclius first heard of Muhammad and his message, he thought it was just another Arian heresy coming from the depths of the desert. Byzantine Christianity had a long history of dealing with heresies. Diversity of religion was long seen as a threat to the state, a form of treason Muslims believe that the upsurge of Unitarian belief which occurred in western Europe from the 1500s was directly related to the translation of the Bible into the language of the people. While it had been kept from them, the priests and the pictures in churches told the Gospel story to them. Once the laity could actually read the Bible, they found no trace of pope, of priests, of bishops, of trinities, of riches amongst those who followed Jesus. It is this modern form of Unitarianism which was influential in western Europe and thence in the United States. However, like these early modern readers of the Bible, Muslims trace the roots of Unitarian belief back to Jerusalem and the message of Jesus himself . Unitarians and Muslims both believe that the New Testament is an uncertain guide to the actual events of this early period. This does not mean that there is not truth there, although details and interpretations vary. Muslims regard the books of the New Testament as mainly the product of the followers of Paul of Tarsus, who did not know Jesus, but whose followers became dominant. It is worthy of note that of the many epistles in the New Testament, only one comes from James, called the brother of Jesus, while the rest appear to come from Paul or his followers. Jesus did not claim to be God. In the Gospel according to John it is recorded that Jesus said "…the Father is greater than I" (14:28). That a prophet would even state this is unlikely as there was no doubt in the minds of the early followers of the Gospel that God was one and no human could claim divine attributes. Such notions were pagan. Like other prophets, Jesus explained that he was teaching only what God had given to him. There is a long history and association. Unitarian beliefs are similar to Islam. Muslims believe Jesus was born of a virgin. They believe Jesus was created like Adam--from the dust of the earth--They don't believe He was the Son of God--but a man. They call Jesus a prophet--He did miracles--They don't believe in the crucifixion. They do hold Jesus in esteem. Qur'an repeatedly reminds us that Adam, the first human being, was born with neither a human mother nor a human father. Therefore, Jesus' miraculous birth affords him no higher standing or presumed partnership with God. When God ordains a matter, He merely says, "Be" and it is so. "The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be!" And he was" . In Islam, Jesus is regarded as a human prophet and messenger of God, not part of God Himself In TWI--we believed Jesus to be a man--created(second Adam)--born of a virgin--did miracles--we believed in the cucifixtion, but got rid of the cross. They don't believe in the ressurection as we did, but we had to put our own spin on even that. It was not such an oddball comparison if you take the time to look at both systems of belief and compare them.

I think part of the problem arises from the motives of one poster being wrongly discerned by another--and then a reaction to that assumption--met with utter shock by the original poster--words are put in others mouths and then it is a "Brawl" It has happened to me more times than not. I hold a differing view--so I must mean "A" although I really said "B". It is a difficult mode of communication. We should actually read and listen if we are going to respond. Just my opinion. I try to really hear what someone says. I do have a knack for taking it But it is never my intention. Oh well, too much fun to have alone! Let's Party!!

Nice post Ben. I am glad you drew a distinction between Muslim and terrorist. I am sure you have been welcomed at times with incredible hospitality. My sister-in-law was in Kabul 2 years ago and she was just so awed by the welcoming and kindness displayed by everyday people. Have you ever read Prisoners of Hope--about the two girls held by the taliban at the start of the war? That is the heart we are to have towards Muslims. One of love. I would ask you one thing--who does the bible say is to judge all things if not God? I enjoyed your explanation, but see it just a bit differently. Either way-it was nice to read. Have you ever listened to Ravi Zacharias on this topic? To me, the trinity makes it so much clearer--and displays the most amazing gift in Jesus Christ. I am often moved to behave a bit more--due to this understanding-LOL Nice Post-I thank-you

I love the picture of these two cats--it always makes me smile. I have two tuxedo cats -- brothers-- Dickie and Onslow--named after characters in a brit-com called "Keeping up Appearances" they are the funniest animals--house cats--if one sneaks out the other comes to tattle. They yell at me until I go find the brother. They actually climbed on my counter opened the cupboard and got to the top shelf to get the catnip. Smart cats. It was the cutest scene. They were so proud and drunk with it at the same time. No shame!!

"My guess is the person posting that message is some other whacko trinitarian poser, trying to fabricate evidence to support his nonsense position." Sounds like he believed this and thought I knew it. It is an accusation of dishonesty. I don't know--how many threads do we need? You tell me. The "Little girl" comment was to emphasize I am no threat --meaning one little (girl, female, woman, weaker vessel-whatever you want to call us)voice is not going to effect a change on ones beliefs unless they are unsure of them to begin with. Hope that clears it up for you. JAL can think what ever he wishes, as can Rhino but, I feel Dr. Juedes response to the letter was very good. I liked Pawtuckets response as well, as I have thought the same thing. Instead of telling God who He is, as a real live God He should be able to reveal Himself to us--if we humbly ask Him--He may show a bit more than we have learned before--or not. Seems to me in TWI we were all about this topic--we knew the truth--may have missed something while we were running around telling everyone who Jesus is not. Oh yeah--we did--or at least I did. The whole Jesus thing just passed me right on by. He was my big BRO--well now He MUCH different to me now. Pastor Juedes represents a position held by a large majority of Christians on this issue. That does not mean he doesn't care for those who think otherwise--I think his commitment to we ex-twiers and the ones still trapped within is reflected in his time and effort. As for the Muslim forum--well, I said it was off topic and I just posted it in case anyone was interested. I didn't expect a fire fight. ALL three major religions share something. They are all from the same source so to speak. A look at what makes them differ is interesting to me. Christianity sprung from Judaism--Islam is an extension of Christianity--false or not--that is what it is. The similarities between unitarians and Muslims are different than that of trinitarians--a distinct line is drawn with them As their arguments are so similar to what we said in TWI--I thought some might be interested in looking at it. Knowing Muslims and having discussed their faith with them, it did not seem such an odd thing. I threw us off topic--my mistake--I didn't expect that kind of response.

Hi Thanks so much for the link. Yeah I caught that at the end--I added it because it made sense to make the distinction. I think that was refering to the last post--the others were just Unitarians. What I found so interesting is that Muslims can relate to that perspective much better than trinitarian. I think that is because they are monotheistic--staunchly monotheistic--it is a big part of their faith. They see a similarity in Unitarians--so kinda lump them in too. In fact--unitarian Christians are safe according to Islam, as they will receive salvation--they are people of the book. Jews were considered people of the book as well--because of monotheism. I don't think that is still true--or it is different with different sects. Islam and Judaism did live peacefully together from time to time throughout history. Christians who believe in the trinity are not saved according to Islam. Their arguments are very similar to ours were in TWI--One God--Idolatry--etc. . . . I believe in One God. Three persons--I guess that doesn't count! LOL I know many Muslims--they are gentle kind people for the most part. So hospitable and they will give so willingly. Very family orientated. One of my good friends was married to a Muslim Doctor in our area. He spoke at our church about Islam. She came to bible study with me a few weeks ago and corrected some lingering misunderstandings about Islam. Her children are Muslim. She never converted. Anyway--I am not as clear on the difference anymore about Universal--and unitarian--but I know there is a big one. Thanks again for the link

The site is called Shiachat.com The name of the thread is: Are Unitarian Christians Technically Muslims? I would post a link if I knew how--gotta learn that. The thought of terrorist never entered my mind--I just got that.

One more time--It was Muslims comparing--very interesting to me. I pointed it out. Wow--I believe something and post it and I am a mean old farm uncle. How do you survive in a multicultural diverse nation like this? The JW's make it through when they show up at my door. But, we have grown right? We sure could dish it out to the trinitarians--let one lone little girl voice a differing position, say it matters and she is a mean old farm uncle. But then again--Pastor Juedes was too much right? The sweetest guy around, faithful in prayer for YEARS for us. He is too much. How many here have been that faithful to ANYTHING in prayer. Shows the disparity and my posts differ and that just irritates you enough to compare me to a mean old farm uncle. What's the matter get tired of picking on DWBH? BTW--I found solace in God after I recognized who He is and what it all really means--you want to know what gave me comfort? Jesus who is God.

My point is this Bill. If I can't even post a differing POV without being called a liar--how on earth can I bring forth the most life altering and shattering events of my past in TWI. I wasn't trying to hurt anyone with my post but I found it so interesting. I wanted to share it. If I can't share this--I am surely NOT going to share my story--and I have a winner of a TWI experience. I had a child with CF--just imagine for a moment if you will. Geisha PS For the record--I never said you were condemned to hell or whatever if you didn't believe the trinity--those words have been said for me several times now. I said it mattered. I simply pointed out it mattered. At best we were carnal Christians in TWI. The heart on display in TWI was stoney cold. Mine included. We served our own selves and MOCKED others. The heart I see on display with other Christians who believe the trinity--well, the difference is huge. I really believe it matters, but never said for hell. I don't think that many were truly born-again--I wasn't--I was the same girl TRYING real hard to be what TWI said I should be. Jesus who? End of topic for me -- I have had it.

Go Sox--Red Sox Nation Baby! I think I'll pass. I have seen the compassionate nature on display here. Thanks for the light heartedness--calling me a liar on what I just posted and deciding my motives for me. I will spare you the smiley faces

Well I am in a bit of trouble if Allah is in charge--here is another one from Imam Habeeb Hi, what is your view on Unitarians like these www.unitarianchristian.net? are they more acceptable than normal Christians and Unitarian Universalists? thanks While they declare their belief to be the unity of God and the rejection of the Trinity they also say "If a man is at heart just, then in so far is he God; the safety of God, the immortality of God, the majesty of God do enter into that man with justice." Ralph Waldo Emerson July 15, 1838 They were around a while and outwardly we may call them people of tawheed- who are people of the oriiginal Books and they will recieve salvation. Allah knows the best. Islam seems to take a more kindly view of unitarians than trinitarians. Rhino--I just thought it was interesting! Geeeeze lighten up! It was a Muslim site. I promise LOL I have been both ANTI-TRINITY and now accept it as truth--don't really think anything else. I believe it is all. Boy trying to have some fun.

I guess this is a bit off topic, but I found this on a Muslim forum and found it really interesting. . . . . . Salam Alaykum, I have been doing a bit of research on this group of christians who call themselves unitarian christians. They reject the idea of "trinity" COMPLETELY, and say that God is ONE. They believe that Jesus was a mighty messenger of God, and that he was sent to deliver a message. And that Jesus in no way claimed divinity and that he was a human just like the rest. Do you guys think that TECHNICALLY this group of christians are muslims? Given that they have little or no knowledge of the Noble Qur'an and that they are not well informed of prophet Muhammed's messengership. Here are videos of Unitarian Christians proving to the other christians that the Bible says that God is One. They shows how trinity is nowhere mentioned in the bible. If only these guys knew about Islam and the Noble Qur'an , and how their interpretation of Jesus fits perfectly with Islam's. 1) "Trinity Dismissed by a Unitarian Christian using the Bible": 2) "The Trinity is Idol Worship" Again,.. do u guys think that they are technically Muslims? Salam Alaykum. The problem is there is no christian sect that tries to understand Jesus the way he wanted to be understood even these unitarians still, while not believing in the trinity, end up making Jesus super-human at some level though I'll say this, when it comes to Christians converting to islam, this is usually the pattern that follows.....first logic and rationality expose the ludicrousness of the trinity, then they go on searching through the gazillion Christian churches for something that make sense....at the end of which they either end up developing some quasi universalist self imposed theology or they end up coming to islam realizing that that is where they are able to experience God and Jesus the way they always wanted to would consider these christians as the ummah (nation) of the Prophet Jeasus a.s. They have a better understanding of ideologies concerning God in comparison to other christians, and I pray, the Last Imam and the Prophet Jesus come to this world to correct all of us, whether Muslims, Christians, Jews, Athiests e.t.c I am reminded of a tradition that our Prophet, Muhammad P.b.u.H, felt sorrow and prayed for Najashi, the Christian, after hearing the news of His death. Najashi ( May Allah bless Him) helped Islam and Muslims in the most difficult times and Allah and His Messenger, Muhammad, advised the handful of Muslims to travel to najashi's land in order to seek peace and refuge from the oppression of Arab pagans. Salams. the main thing that differs between unitarians and muslims in the belief that one is saved (of a sin he didnt commit) through the death of jesus, im not sure about the rest of their beliefs Although they are well-respected by Muslims and close to Islam, they are not Muslims as they: -Do not recognize Muhammed -Do not recognize the Qur'an -Believe in atonement (that Jesus sacrificed himself to save the world from sins) Salaam, One of my really good friends is Unitarian- and their belief system is incredibly close to ours- its one of the reasons why so often Unitarians really respect Muslims. BTW Qa'im are you sure they believe in atonement? From my understanding, I didnt think they did, but I could be wrong. That being said, they're not muslim, but are certainly of the ahlul kitab- and those who did not corrupt the scriptures as much as other sects of Christianity. Also interestingly enough, the unitarian church where i live is often involved in fighting for human rights- including things like being against zionism etc, and thats something thats great- much moreso than many of our islamic centers that refuse to carry the title of being anti-israel etc. Unitarian in the discussion of the present topic is referring to those (especially Christians) who do not accept the doctrine of the Trinity. Unitarian in what you're mentioning (I think) is referring to the modern day Unitarian-Universalism, which actually don't really seem to believe in much of anything beyond their conception of humanism (they aren't specifically Christian, though individual members may self-identify as such). To be a UUer, you don't even need to believe in God, or, you might believe in several. It's a catch all type church that wants to appeal to everybody, exclude nobody, but in the end don't really represent much of anything in terms of actual religious belief. It tends to appeal to the more liberal, leftist (or conversely, libertarian) type folks, those who don't want to commit to a dogma or the discipline of a real religious belief, but still want the "feel-good" happiness and semblance of structure going to a church on Sundays might seem to provide. Just thought it was fascinating! Didn't copy and paste it all. They seem to have an interesting take on the whole topic. :) :)

Hi Thomas, That just makes CS Lewis all the more dear to me. :) :) :) Amazing man-Amazing thinker--Wonderful Christian--They would think him nuts I guess. That makes perfect sense! :) Seems we strained a gnat and swallowed a camel.

Hi Again, I just wanted to add. On this question 2. Does one have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian? I would pose it as-- Can one flat out reject the deity of Christ and be saved? After being informed and making a conscious choice--will one be saved? Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error Sunesis point that many of us who have left and believed in Christ deity is right on. VP was a false teacher according to scripture--this verse talks about being against Christ. Not confused or unsure, but actually anti-Christ. Can you be saved if you are against Him? Can we accept and deny at once? On another Jesus, again 2Cor11 says: For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. . . . . . . For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds. Can a false teacher preach another version of Jesus and another gospel and it be unto salvation? If VP fits the bill as a false teacher--and we recieved "another Jesus' would it be a Jesus preached unto salvation? Does the true Jesus the Apostles preached matter? Does it make a difference to be saved? Seems it does. Also, if these men who preach "another" Jesus--man only--spirit only--disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, but we know them by their lives-fruit--What were we involved in with VP? Highly suspect IMHO As would be His version of Jesus according to scripture. We have to consider "different spirit"--when we consider what we learned in TWI-Big H little h--that too might be a denial of the true Holy Spirit? Makes that whole SIT very suspect as well. Doesn't mean we didn't accept a version of the Holy Spirit--or manifest that version, just means it may have been a different one. The thing that is so telling about this --is that Jesus transforms lives--in TWI many of us just traded in one form of sin for another--getting down and dirty and really examining it--I just stopped one behavior and adopted other sinful ones. NO transformation. Just some thoughts. How can we make Him Lord(Obey and keep His commandments) if we are rejecting who He is--How can we call on His name as Lord if we are calling on another Jesus? :) Just wondering

T-bone This above is a GREAT post. I am glad you are working things out for yourself. Great is the mystery of Godliness huh? I think maybe you have something in the high def thing, but I would just add this. What about those who say He was a good moral man and teacher--does that matter? It does, because of the ressurection. In TWI we didn't reject the human part of Jesus--or the ressurection, we rejected the divinity. Either way--it is still a rejection and not an acceptance of who we are calling Lord. A conscious rejection, not a limited understanding, but a full out Jesus Christ is NOT God rejection. He did not come in the flesh? All men come in the flesh don't they? The gnostics of the day said Jesus was a spirit and had no flesh--much like some groups today. We said He had flesh, was a man, and rose from the dead. So, does that count for us? Some thoughts. Did we deny it was God come in the flesh? Is it still a rejection and not an acceptance of Jesus's claims of being God? Only if you can talk away His claims!!Can you reject Him and be saved? Some seem to think so. I love to read C.S. Lewis on this topic. He was an agnostic for awhile --Josh Mcdowell does a great work up on this topic. If He wasn't God and just some man--He was a nut--we just made Him into a "Superman" Our version didn't even make sense! Jesus' distinct claims of being God eliminate the popular ploy of skeptics who regard Him as just a good moral man or a prophet who said a lot of profoundthings. So often that conclusion is passed off as the only one acceptable to scholars or as the obvious result of the intellectual process. The trouble is, many people nod their heads in agreement and never see the fallacy of such reasoning. C. S. Lewis, who was a professor at Cambridge University and once an agnostic, understood this issue clearly. He writes: "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic ‑ on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg ‑ or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the son of God: or else a madman or something worse." Then Lewis adds:"You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." In the words of Kenneth Scott Latourette, historian of Christianity at Yale University: "It is not His teachings which make Jesus so remarkable, although these would be enough to give Him distinction. It is a combination of the teachings with the man Himself. The two cannot be separated." Jesus claimed to be God. He didn't leave any other option open. His claim must be either true or false, so it is something that should be given serious consideration. Jesus' question to His disciples, "But who do you say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15) has several alternatives. First, suppose that His claim to be God was false. If it was false, then we have only two alternatives. He either knew it was false or He didn't know it was false. We will consider each one separately and examine the evidence.Was He a Liar? If, when Jesus made His claims, He knew that He was not God, then He was lying and deliberately deceiving His followers. But if He was a liar, then He was also a hypocrite because He told others to be honest, whatever the cost, while He himself taught and lived a colossal lie. More than that, He was a demon, because He told others to trust Him for their eternal destiny. If He couldn't back up His claims and knew it, then He was unspeakably evil. Last, He would also be a fool because it was His claims to being God that led to His crucifixion. Many will say that Jesus was a good moral teacher. Let's be realistic. How could He be a great moral teacher and knowingly mislead people at the most important point of His teaching ‑His own identity? You would have to conclude logically that He was a deliberate liar. This view of Jesus, however doesn't coincide with what we know either of Him or the results of His life and teachings. Wherever Jesus has been proclaimed, lives have been changed for the good, nations have changed for the better, thieves are made honest, alcoholics are cured, hateful individuals become channels of love, unjust persons become just. William Lecky, one of Great Britain's most noted historians and a dedicated opponent of organized Christianity, writes: "It was reserved for Christianity to present to the world an ideal character which through all the changes of 18 centuries has inspired the hearts of men with an impassioned love; has shown itself capable of acting on all ages, nations, temperaments and conditions; has been not only the highest pattern of virtue, but the strongest incentive to its practice.... The simple record of these 3 short years of active life has done more to regenerate and soften mankind than all the disquisitions of philosophers and all the exhortations of moralists." Historian Philip Schaff says: "How, in the name of logic, common sense, and experience, could an imposter ‑ that is a deceitful, selfish, depraved man ‑ have invented, and consistently maintained from the beginning to end, the purest and noblest character known in history with the most perfect air of truth and reality? How could He have conceived and successfully carried out a plan of unparalleled beneficence, moral magnitude, and sublimity, and sacrificed His own life for it, in the face of the strongest prejudices of His people and age?" If Jesus wanted to get people to follow Him and believe in Him as God, why did He go to the Jewish nation? Why go as a Nazarene carpenter to a country so small in size and population and so thoroughly adhering the undivided unity of God? Why didn't He go to Egypt or, even more, to Greece, where they believed in various gods and various manifestations of them? Someone who lived as Jesus lived, taught as Jesus taught, and died as Jesus died could not have been a liar. Was He a Lunatic? If it is inconceivable for Jesus to be a liar, then couldn't He actually have thought Himself to be God, but been mistaken? After all, it's possible to be both sincere and wrong. But we must remember that for someone to think himself God, especially in a fiercely monotheistic culture, and then to tell others that their eternal destiny depended on believing in him, is no light flight of fantasy but the thoughts of a lunatic in the fullest sense. Was Jesus Christ such a person? Someone who believes he is God sounds like someone today believing himself Napoleon. He would be deluded and self‑deceived, and probably he would be locked up so he wouldn't hurt himself or anyone else. Yet in Jesus we don't observe the abnormalities and imbalance that usually go along with being deranged. His poise and composure would certainly be amazing if He were insane. Noyes and Kolb, in a medical text, describe the schizophrenic as a person who is more autistic than realistic. The schizophrenic desires to escape from the world of reality. Let's face it; claiming to be God would certainly be a retreat from reality. In light of the other things we know about Jesus, it's hard to imagine that He was mentally disturbed. Here is a man who spoke some of the most profound sayings ever recorded. His instructions have liberated many individuals from mental bondage. Clark H. Pinnock asks:"Was He deluded about His greatness, a paranoid, an unintentional deceiver, a schizophrenic? Again, the skill and depth of His teachings support the case only for His total mental soundness. If only we were as sane as He!" A student at a California university told me that his psychology professor had said in class that "all he has to do is pick up the Bible and read portions of Christ's teaching to many of his patients. That's all the counseling they need." Psychiatrist J. T. Fisher states:"If you were to take the sum total of all authoritative articles ever written by the most qualified of psychologists and psychiatrists on the subject of mental hygiene ‑if you were to combine them and refine them, and cleave out the excess verbiage ‑ if you were to take the whole of the meat and none of the parsley, and if you were to have these unadulterated bits of pure scientific knowledge concisely expressed by the most capable of living poets, you would have an awkward and incomplete summation of the Sermon on the Mount. And it would suffer immeasurably through comparison. For nearly 2,000 years the Christian world has been holding in its hands the complete answer to its restless and fruitless yearnings. Here ... rests the blueprint for successful human life with optimism, mental health, and contentment." C. S. Lewis writes: "The historical difficulty of giving for the life, sayings and influence of Jesus any explanation that is not harder than the Christian explanation is very great. The discrepancy between the depth and sanity ... of His moral teaching and the rampant megalomania which must lie behind His theological teaching unless He is indeed God has never been satisfactorily explained. Hence the non‑Christian hypotheses succeed one another with the restless fertility of bewilderment." Philip Schaff reasons: "Is such an intellect ‑ clear as the sky, bracing as the mountain air, sharp and penetrating as a sword, thoroughly healthy and vigorous, always ready and always self‑possessed ‑ liable to a radical and most serious delusion concerning His own character and mission? Preposterous imagination!" Was He Lord? I cannot personally conclude that Jesus was a liar or a lunatic. The only other alternative is that He was the Christ, the Son of God, as He claimed. When I discuss this with most Jewish people, it's interesting how they respond. They usually tell me that Jesus was a moral, upright, religious leader, a good man, or some kind of prophet. I then share with them the claims Jesus made about Himself and then this material on the trilemma (liar, lunatic, or Lord). When I ask if they believe Jesus was a liar, there is a sharp "No!" Then I ask, "Do you believe He was a lunatic?" The reply is, "Of course not." "Do you believe He is God?" Before I can get a breath in edgewise, there is a resounding, "Absolutely not." Yet one has only so many choices. The issue with these 3 alternatives is not which is possible, for it is obvious that all 3 are possible.Rather, the question is, "Which is more probable?" Who you decide Jesus Christ is must not be an idle intellectual exercise. You cannot put Him on the shelf as a great moral teacher. That is not a valid option. He is either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord and God. You must make a choice. "But," as the apostle John wrote, "these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and" ‑ more important ‑ "that believing you might have life in His name" (John 20:31). The evidence is clearly in favor of Jesus as Lord. Some people, however, reject this clear evidence because of moral implications involved. They don't want to face up to the responsibility or implications of calling Him Lord.

Hey Rhino You make some interesting points. I saw Dr. Juedes letter and just about stood up and applauded. Espescially, the part about JCNG :) You did say something I want to ask you about(With a soft tone and smile:) ) There is no evidence that readers would have rejected it ... except that their larger cult "blindly" accepted Trinity doctrine for so long. And certainly not all blindly accepted VP's trinity views, but they were less likely to stick around if they did not. Certainly there was less room for divergent views in TWI (I presume), but I find Juedes' view too absolute. If you were in divinity school, were you allowed to "pass go" without firm allegiance to Trinity dogma? (I don't really know, I'd say no, at least at Bob Jones University When you say you would not pass go in a divinity school--is it really an allegiance to the trinity that would be a problem? You speak of it as if it is an allegiance to a dogma--can you see the perspective that is an understanding of God's nature instead? If you were in divinity school majoring in "God" and you rejected the most basic understanding of His being--and the textbook(The bible :) ) taught you otherwise--but you rejected it for a shoddy piece of scholarship--no bigger than newsweek and weak in its argument. Just to shore up a misunderstanding--should you pass? You might pass in Victor Paul's School of the Divine--Someone who's qualifications match those of a false teacher, but in a Christian institue--you would not be sent out to tend the sheep--as your doctrine would be recognized and graded as false and you would be ill-equiped to minister to the brethren. Another way to look at it?? I think your statement is a bit misleading because it imposes your understanding just in the framing of the question itself. Rhino==of course there is an understanding that readers would have rejected it. Billy Grahm prepared the people he ministered to with an understanding of who God is and the true gospel of salvation. A child would recognize that error after hearing and accepting the truth of the gospel and reject it soundly--much like my child did. We were in a "Cult" and conditioned to dismiss it--reject it and mock it. Mock it. Anyway, just some thoughts from someone who has been on both sides of the coin. I did not blindly accept it for so long--I blindly rejected it and then accepted it after really seeing and understanding it. --enjoy your day--I am not looking for a fight--I enjoy many of your posts!! :) :) :) :) These are smiley faces--I have on my best little girl voice and I am just speaking to you!! Take Care