geisha779

Abby--as usual right on the money--not only are we expanding --we are embracing a more post-modern view of things--That is one of the reasons this interests me so much. Christians--should be out serving more and spouting pronouncments less. That exposes the love of God to a multitude who have seen attitude over works. It helps to bring those seeking into the fold so to speak. That is what I teach my kids--show your faith in your deeds--okay maybe they are teaching me!! I am curious about perception and willing to work to express my love for others instead of pointing fingers. That is what Jesus talked about--by their fruit--love your neighbor--I think that is where we Christians often fall short. We are saved by grace!! We should be rejoicing and serving as He has asked us. True religion--the widows and orphans--that is what attracts me to certain ministries--my son and I do several things each month to serve--but it has to be truly in our hearts as a lifestyle!

Your perspective and presence is MORE than welcome. I am honestly interested in all perspectives here. I am curious where people have landed and what is percieved as intolerance. I do agree with you that interpretation is subjective, and truth--can be percieved in many ways--but by its nature can just be one thing. If we look at it from a logical vantage point---that is why I don't abhor the Orthodox--I embrace it. Doesn't mean I KNOW--all truth--far from it--it just means I go with the accepted tenants and doctrines of the Orthodox. It is also why I embrace truth in the person Of Jesus Christ. I am fallible--who would have thought it!!

I see alot of "truth" and good old common sense in what you say--Christians should be more than tolerant IMHO--they should be out there in the community serving and showing God's love--NOT condemning--but coming out of TWI I have really had to look at this stuff. I seem to come across as intolerant sometimes--but I hear that about Christians as a whole--more and more. It has made me stop and think. I don't think a two minute blurb on why someone's behavior is sin--does anyone any good. If you cannot sit down and really relate what you believe--it may just foster that perception. And YES by ALL means--ex-TWI need to really look at where they want to go after TWI. We were told for years basically everything--so it is the most LOGICAL thing for ex-way to react in the manner of live and let live--It makes PERFECT sense to me. Any percieved proselytizing or judgement is bound to be met with resistance--it is all too familar!!LOL

Bramble I LOVE IT!! Thank-you because that is one of the things I am talking about!! Pluralism--all inclusiveness--just because you say I am not a Christian--you don't define me kinda thinking!!! Aberrant forms of Christianity--or new religion all have something in common--similar to TWI!!! They seeks to redefine Christianity--one historically--and two from the outside--by redefining or changing the basic tenants of Christianity and are supported by those advocating TOLERANCE!! :) I am so glad you chose those sites--because much of my discussions with others here--are based on these very ideas. The idea that you can be a Christian--remaking traditional biblical understanding. Isn't the basic doctrines of the bible what make us Christian--The Jesus of the bible?? Bramble, I honestly think this is what frustrates people in TWI and those who still hold to the doctrines they learned here. I would love to calmly and honestly have this discussion because I am genuinley interested in this. Not out of zeal, but because I actually understand both sides. It comes down to truth again. A REALITY that has a corresponding OBJECT. The details about that reality---cannot be opposite and both be true. Therefore it comes down to a CHOICE on what you believe to be the reality. Conditioning--must be considered--a certain trained perspective has to honestly be evaluated. FEAR MOTIVATION on both sides has to be dealt with before we come to an understanding. If we decide our idea is the right one and it puts us at odds with the ORTHODOX(Which is NOT a BAD word--it means rules and beliefs which are approved)then we are OUTSIDE the norm. The Church defines itself by its doctrines Bramble--that is a GOOD thing. It defines itself by biblical truth. If we break away from these basic doctrines we are then defined as ABERRANT(straying from the right or normal way ). No longer Christian in the accepted and approved or Orthodox way. There has to be a right way. Truth requires it by its very nature. However, if one decides this is not the case and reacts out of frustration at percieved intolerance--a deeper look and understanding of the why's are a most important factor for the one claiming "New Truth" or "Special Knowledge" or a widely differing understanding of basic biblical doctrines. Truth has an object to which its reality corresponds. Tolerance does not mean accepting all truths as reality--that is not what it is--it is not even a LOGICAL possibility. Therefore, the one advocating a "NEW' truth--and calling it Christianity--may actually be in rebellion(NOT ALWAYS A BAD WORD opposition to one in authority or dominance) to the ORTHODOX. Denominations are often born from rebellion or renewal. That is one of the many reasons denominations are not always BAD things--if they hold to the basic tenants of Christianity. The reform movements of the 16th century were to restore teachings the church had eclipsed by then--justification-salvation by faith-the sovereignty of God. Some presbyterians caved to the pressures of liberalism and new groups were formed to preserve the traditions. Often a denomination is formed to combat some aberrant form of the same denomination. Baptists came along in the reformed tradition advocating these principles--justification by faith be applied to the church. Pentecostals and charismatics formed unions based on their views of spiritual gifts. They are also formed out of churches seeking fellowship. The important thing to look at--the standard by which we evaluate a denomination--is its teachings and practices and its adherence to scripture--in its Orthodox understanding. See, it is alot bigger than everyone is right. That is an impossibility. As a seeker of Christ, you must choose the aberrant or the Orthodox--which seems to be a word that grates on some. That should be examined as well. Why would such a simple word grate? Could it be percieved intolerance? I submit the onus is actually on the one with "New Light" or opposing theology. I know there are biblical warnings on these very issues. Where or from whom did we learn our theology(NOT a bad word The study of God and of God's relation to the world) must be deeply cosidered. If we did not understand similar issues before we were taught by TWI--as many claim--could it STILL be our own understanding--seeking a system to validate our rebellion to the Orthodox? New Religious movements like TWI--all share common characteristics--one of those being EXCLUSIONARY and ELITIST in theology. You see, I can respect your faith or Abigails so much easier than I can an aberrant form of MY FAITH. BEcause, I see it as a breaking away from the right theology to embrace and elitist and exclusionary form with "New Authority" "Justification and defense of false teaching" "Untrained lay people as leaders" "Central MOGS" "An understanding of being the 'True" body" "Predatory recruitment" "Sanctioning of heretical figures" "Legalistic demands of members while leaders living sin filled lives" . These groups who claim "Special Revelation" also usually have a highly autocratic system which controls every aspect of its members lives. They usurp Christian vocabulary and change the meaning of words or phrases. They emphasize secondary issues and minor points of theology. They emphasize EXPERIENCE over doctrine. They dabble in the occult. I can see tolerating anothers beliefs--but if they claim Christianity and by their very nature are destructive--I must as a Christian--speak out. Christianity is actually ONE FAITH --and CHRIST CENTERED. So, it has to be one truth about Christ--hope that makes sense??? Caps are for emphasis NOT shouting! :)

Hi Free, That is a great example of a group that can call Christians intolerant. I have to wonder though if we don't do a bit to aid that perception. I spent the other day working with a lesbian couple I know--they are nice ladies--very ethical. They said that they really like hubby and I--and were shocked to learn we were Christians--they can't stand Christians because they think Christians are intolerant. She just called me a few minutes ago!! We had a nice talk--and when asked if I thought homosexuality was wrong-- I said I would love to have that discussion with them sometime when we could sit and give it the attention it deserved. I didn't want to pronounce their lifestyle abberant and quote the bible at them. I didn't want to ruin a relationship that seems mutually respectful with a two minute chat. I would rather let them know me as a person who respects them as people. Who does a good job for them and is friendly and kind. If they are really interested in what I think--I would like to sit down with love and reason from the scriptures with them. It is a hard thing to give up sin--we do it for the love of Christ. It is a struggle. We must know His love to love Him back and give things up for Him. It is a process and requires real healing. Do we show them the love of God? I hope we do. Good point --- the bible often convicts us of that we don't want to deal with. My hope is for those perishing to come to the throne now--We can change that perception of intolerance by living our faith. :) It is a fun ride!!

A few threads got me really thinking about this topic--Tolerance. Is Christianity tolerant? What exactly does tolerance mean? It is defined as: The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others. Seems to me I hear more and more these days that Christians are intolerant. Am I not doing a good job expressing my Christian Faith?--It is hardly an intolerant belief system. The bible exhorts us to life peaceably with all men--as much as we are able. It tells me to love my neighbor as myself. It tells me Jesus died for all. Christianity tells me that humans are made in God's image. That gives all an inherent RIGHT to respect as human beings. So, why the criticism of Christians? Who is leveling it at our faith in general? If one redefines the word tolerance to mean we must accept all lifestyles as good and faiths as true--then yes--Christians are intolerant. But, then that would make those in opposition to Christianity intolerant as well. That is not what tolerance historically means. It means a respect and recognition of the beliefs of others. It does not mean an embracing them as true. I can disagree completely with someone's faith and still respect them as a person. In fact, Christianity doesn't imply that everyone else is 100% WRONG. I can agree ethically and scientifically with many people who are NOT Christian. In fact there are posters here I often agree with who are NOT Christian. Abigal oftens says things I agree with--Bramble sometimes--even Oakspear. All non-christians. Truth is universal it belongs to God. We as Christian differentiate between beliefs and the person holding them. We can disagree with the belief and respect the person. I wonder if the same can be said about those who level accusations at Christians as intolerant? I do have to wonder? Tolerance operates at differing levels as well. I can tolerate something in someone elses life and not my own. You may do something with your children, allow something I would not--I can easily tolerate others right to raise their own children(Safely). The church does not tolerate adultery in its clergy? We don't throw them in jail, but we should not tolerate their behavior. Christianity emphasizes grace and humility. It does. I am a sinner--a bread beggar--I came to my faith broken--not arrogant. The spirit of the gospel does not say that Christians are better than non-christians--in fact quite the opposite. We recognize our inability. We despise our sin and repent before God. We look for the free gift of salvation in Jesus--unable to save ourselves. We tell other beggars where to find it. That is all. We seek out others who yearn for salvation and point them to the cross. If we tell you the way there in the process--how does that hurt you? You are free to say no thank-you. By the very nature of truth--there can't be many ways--think about it? Many truths--everyone's point true. True for you-not for me. Truth is not an opinion. The moon is made of cheese--well, no it is not. As Christians, we claim the bible as true--because it conforms to the actualities of God's existence and His dealings with human beings. Truth is a relationship. A match up with what is real or actual. Truth is not molded to fit whatever you want to make it. Anti-realism. Think about this--if I disagree with that idea--anti-realism--then those who hold to it--think I am wrong. Blows the whole premise up right there, because then there is one thing absolute--I am wrong. So, Christianity with its adherence to truth can be called intolerant--but I gotta tell you--it makes the one doing the calling look pretty hypocritical. Is Christianity intolerant--One truth?

Brushstroke, Oddly enough--Jesus was fairly forbidden. At least the Jesus of the bible--and for GOODNESS sake--don't say Jesus without the Christ added on. VP's version of Jesus Christ was given a glancing nod on occasion. Good tack-on at the end of prayer--You think I am kidding right? NOPE! I would hate to tell you what they ended up calling the Jesus of the church. I really can't even say what they said about Him anymore-makes me ill.

BRAMBLE,I have ALWAYS wanted to share this link with you--but have been a bit afraid because I don't want you to think I am proselytizing you. Perhaps Oakspear might be interested as well. You do NOT have to be a Christian to post there. In FACT, Wiccans are protected from Christian "Fire and Brimestone" preaching.It is a great place for Wiccans and Christians to meet up and discuss issues. It is a busy forum. It is NOT a place people seek to convert you. It is a fairly honest forum with some great discussions.It is run by ex-witches who are now Christians--but they do NOT judge you for still practicing Wicca.I just always thought you might like it--you have a unique perspective--having left a pseudo-christian cult--and embraced Wicca. So please take it in the spirit it is offered. A friendly one.You may be familar with it--I don't know--but the rules are very interesting and are laid out to allow you the freedom to post your beliefs. Let me know if you liked it? I have not been there in a year or so--hope it is still up and going?http://www.exwitch.org/index.php

Hi Belle, Thanks for asking. First let me say this to you--as I have always wanted to. I so enjoy your posts. Truly. I do understand you are evaluating everything you learned and I respect that. I also realise we may be opposite on many issuses--but I enjoy your wit and perspective. In fact, many times I have laughed right out loud at something you have said--probably muttered "you go girl"! You are a sharp cookie. Having said that --feeling good to have been able to--I expressed what I believe, but will recap for you. My "Scolding" was not really so much that--as frustration for having my thoughts mischaracterized. But, it is a less than perfect medium and I am verbose. You can see my faith in the words of Sunesis--Bride--Rainbowgirl and a few others that post here--we have come to similar conclusions. I suspect they have a great deal more gray matter than I, but then again I am a blonde! :) I believe that hell is the absence of God--much like Sunesis said--there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. It is Jesus who holds it all together now, all things are held together by the word of His power. --if He is absent?? It is gonna be hell. I call it eternal judgment. God tells us now to choose. He makes it so simple-He has provided it all and offers us so much. In Matthew 7, He tells us of the two gates, the two paths, the two trees, the two foundations, and the two builders. We must choose which path--one leads to salvation(Jesus Christ) one leads to eternal destruction. The bible says that God so LOVED the world that HE GAVE His only begotten Son--it doesn't say God so Hated the world He sends us all to hell. Sounds to me like-----although He is just He tempers that justice with incredible mercy. I think He says He wants none to perish, but all to come to repentance ? He gives us the choice where to spend eternity. Freewill. He offers us gifts--love--mercy--eternity--kindness-salvation--inheritance--hope--freedom and grace. He offers us healing and wholeness. He offers us Himself--with all His glory--He even offers us glory. He prepares a place for us to dwell with Him in eternity--He will always take us back. He loves us while we sin--He offers to commune with us--to dwell with us now. He offers us peace--He offers His strength. He offers His heart--He offers us a kingdom? He EVEN offers us the FAITH to believe it all. What does He ask in return? That we believe on His Son--that worthy sacrifice. He will not make that void--for some--it is for all, but, that was the price paid and that is the Way. Jesus. The true gate, path, foundation, builder, He is the Way. If you reject this--isn't that your choice? Just pretend for a moment that it is true--the God of the bible is it. He is creator--isn't how he set redemption up-- His way? I can understand the pain TWI caused. If you believe nothing else--believe me when I say I GET IT! I would not wish my experiences on anybody. But, He turned it to good. He can do that--mean it for good. The deep abiding tender love of God--should not be rejected out of hand. If He is real--what else are we following after? Where will our own path lead? I understand TWI but what if that wasn't really Christianity and we are judging God on our experiences with people and not on Jesus Himself? Wouldn't that be a shame? We--ME--all of us --our wise in our own eyes--HE is wisdom and He is good. And He loves you. God does NOT require you to be a member of a certain church or denomination--He meets you right where you are--you don't have to be perfect or even good--all He requires of you is to believe on His Son-Jesus Christ. When you see His goodness you repent of your sins--it is all Him--He asks so little and offers so much. Now--when we confess Him as LORD--He has the right to demand our obedience--but then again--how we trip over ourselves to please Him when we see His goodness and true mercy--it is not a burden to obey and it is always the right way--because we are flesh--it can be a struggle within ourselves--but He provides the grace and strength. God really is love and in Him is no darkness- in us there is a bit. I can't imagine pronouncing judgement on such a loving God. Calling Him something He is not--He tells us all over the place--to watch our words and be less verbose--I think that is because we tend to prattle on about things we don't fully understand--like a God who is Just-Righteous, and Holy. He HAS to be all that--He is good. Our idea of good--should be modeled after His--not our own vain imagination--which can come up with all kinds of paths. He made it so very simple. Yet we struggle against Him so hard. He STILL loves us and calls us in mercy and grace!

Bramble, I am going to explain this as clearly as I can to you and that is it--you clearly want to make a case about something--have at it and enjoy. I used those references to defend a SIMPLE point my husband made. How Christians define a cult. It is about a deviation from the main doctrines of Christianity--the trinity being the main one. People didn't like that point. I explained it again. They still don't like it--surprize surprize--we were in a cult. Doesn't change the fact that is how Christians define cults and how we were defined. I used a few differing denominations and examples to make my point. THAT BEING HOW CHRISTIANS DEFINE CULTS!!! You attributed the words of someone else to me. Then when I explained what I believe--you tell me I only want to deal with the "Nice" things. WHATEVER you say Bramble. Seems dishonest to me and no way to debate an issue, but knock yourself out. --while you are eschewing my elitist point of view--an absolute truth in the person of Jesus Christ--you are becomming that which you dislike--if there is no absolute truth--and anyone who disagrees with that is WRONG and an elitist. Are you not telling me what truth really is--there is none--and because I don't believe as YOU do--I am somehow misguided? Doesn't that make YOU the elitist. Thanks for giving me a POV-explaining it and telling me I am wrong--Maybe you were just trying to enlighten me with the FACT there is not just one way--but many ways to God. Many Gods. That makes it your truth--I don't agree--so I don't "get" it. . . . . and you think that my point of view is narrow?? Enjoy your thread-- I am sure you will get lots of support for your truth.

Nice try Oakspear, I used it to make a totally different point as well you know-since you posted right after me on a thread about a totally different topic. Making a totally different point. Ruffled? A bit "Irritated" maybe--as it appears to be a back-handed attack on my faith and person. It also appears to be a stretch to pin someones elses words on me--and then proceed to call it my doctrine. How does she know? If you post something on the white supremacists to support a point you are making about racism--am I to understand that is your Point of View as well? But we don't make these arguments personal right? Furthermore, if you went on to define your "doctrine" about racism--and I said to you--you only want to deal with the nice aspects of your "Doctrine" and not deal with the uglier things said by the KKK that I now "logically" attrbute to you. Might that irritate a bit? After all--you used it shore up a point--must mean you hold to their "Doctrine" Even though you painstakingly explained what you actually believed.

Geeze BrambleIf you are going to start a thread in response to something I said? You might want to make sure I ACTUALLY said it. If it is on the post about Mormon's JW's et al==WELL, I didn't ACTUALLY say that!!!!!!!I used an ex-way persons words to illustrate a different point--I did say it was NOT me. I used it to illustrate the description of a cult--used by most Christians.But gee--thanks for helping out poor befuddled "lovely person" "Geisha". Bramble style. That wouldn't be attributing others words to me would it?Here is a link to the person you might want to quiz about those words. Don't take something out of context-said by someone else --pin it to me--and then build some case about MY doctrine. We did that in TWI as well.http://users.churchserve.com/pa/obadiahmin...s/redflags.html

Wow--Bramble--my bible says that God so LOVED the world that HE GAVE His only begotten Son--it doesn't say God so Hated the world He sends us all to hell. Sounds to me like-----although He is just He tempers that justness with incredible mercy. I think He says He wants none to perish? How do you come to your conclusions?? He gave YOU the choice where to spend eternity. Freewill. He offers you gifts--love--mercy--eternity--kindness-salvation--inheritance--hope--freedom and grace. He offers you healing and wholeness. He offers you Himself--with all His glory--He even offers you glory. He prepares a place for you to dwell with Him in eternity--He will always take you back. He loves you while you sin--He offers to commune with you--to dwell with you now. He offers you peace--He offers His strength. He offers His heart--He offers you a kingdom? He EVEN offers you the FAITH to believe it all. What does He ask in return? That we believe on His Son--that worthy sacrifice. He will not make that void--for some--it is for all, but, that was the price paid and that is the Way. Jesus. If you reject this--isn't that your choice? Just pretend for a moment that it is true--the God of the bible is it. He is creator--isn't how he set redemption up-- His way? It appears to me that you don't have any respect for the God of the bible--or fear of the Lord. If that is the case then His judgement should not irritate you--or His words spoken by others should have no effect on you. I can understand the pain TWI caused. If you believe nothing else--believe me when I say I GET IT! I would not wish my experiences on anybody. But, He turned it to good. He can do that--mean it for good. The deep abiding tender love of God--should not be rejected out of hand. If He is real--what else are we following after? I understand TWI but what if that wasn't really Christianity and we are judging God on our experiences with people and not on Jesus Himself? Wouldn't that be a shame? We--ME--all of us --our wise in our own eyes--But Bramble HE is wisdom and He is good. And He loves you. AND JUST TO ADD: God does NOT require you to be a member of a certain church or denomination--He meets you right where you are--you don't have to be perfect or even good--all He requires of you is to believe on His Son-Jesus Christ. When you see His goodness you repent of your sins--it is all Him--He asks so little and offers so much. God really is love and in Him is no darkness- in us there is a bit. I can't imagine pronouncing judgement on such a loving God. Isn't that your problem with HIM!

I get that Bramble--I really really really do. I wish I was better at expressing my heart to you. More than anything I wish I could show you the heart of love I do have for you. I am just not very good at it----with this format. For that I am sorry. I don't want to monopolize your thread--but I do want to ask you just one question. If I know God to be true. If I see His majesty and power and Glory. If I know Him and know He is real. If I have seen the truth of His words and know Him not to lie---If everything I do is with Him in mind--How could you respect me if I altered my view to accomodate any one person. It is God I worship. It is Jesus I follow. Not men. It is real. I don't think people should wield the bible as a weapon--God is love, but He is also just Bramble. Holy and right. I understand why there has to be justice--I honestly get that now. His nature. Which is why the gift of salvation declares His love and mercy--judgement witheld. It is a beautiful gift when really told and expressed. The reason some preach hell, is because some people don't see their sins. They don't see a need for redemption. It is an attention getter!LOL :) My daughter went to a Prep School founded by DL Moody. Nothing now like his original intent--a very secular place. But, we got to see Moody's birthplace and grave, and we learned alot about him. We started reading his sermons--and Johnathan Edwards and others--branched out and read Spurgeon. These men had no armies backing them--they were part of the "Great Awakening". You wanna read some fire and brimestone preaching?? They converted tens of 1000's. More really. Their sermons were often harsh--but tempered with the most amazing portrayal of God's love. People were drawn like flies. It is the love that does that--but first people have to see the need for this amazing redemption offered. Hope that explains it a bit better. Take Care--I hope people with others POV's DO post.

I don't think they are playing until the 1st of September--Portland Sea Dogs. I think we just might go! LOL ooops That is an away game--They are playing the Mets on my birthday--tomorrow--maybe we can go to that.

Hi Waysider, I call it eternal judgement. . . . . . . seperation from God who holds all things together--hope this helps. :) From Matthew 25:31–46 (NRSV): 31 ‘When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and He will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at His right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40 And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,* you did it to me.”’ 41 ‘Then He will say to those at His left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44 Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45 Then He will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’ Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night… Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life…And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power. Matt 25:41: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” This passage relates to Jesus’ judgment of all the world. Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.” The reference to fire is repeated three more times in the passage for emphasis. Luke 16:24: “And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.” This is a plea described as coming from an inhabitant of Hell. Revelation 20:13-15: “…hell delivered up the dead which were in them…And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Revelation 21:8: “But the fearful, and unbelieving … shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Red Sox seem to own the Wildcard as the Twins are tanking. Can't seem to score off left-handed pitchers. Bosox are getting Kotsay from Atlanta for probably nothing--that should take care of Drew. Tonight it is Ponson VS Byrd--could go either way. All parks-even Fenway to some degree have that junk. That is why it is fun to go to AA or AAA ball sometimes. We used to go see the Columbia METS or Durham Bulls--way back in the day. But, the sights--the sounds--the SMELLS--the whole thing--just awesome to see MLB anywhere.

Why on earth would it irritate you if you don't believe in it? It is in the bible and part of the Christian faith. Doesn't that just make you intolerant to those of another faith. I mean really--if it is not true--what do you care? Lose respect all you want. . . . you may be limiting yourself to some very nice people who happen to believe there is eternal judgement. I myself don't limit the people I love because they are Wiccan or have practiced wicthcraft. Gotta go help my mom move into assited care today--she has lived with me for the past 13 years--did I mention she was a practicing witch my whole life?? I am a first generation Christian-- I believe God is just and does not lie. Just to add: One of the reasons I am moving my mom to a place where she can get round the clock care--is because I am afraid she will burn my house down. She is STILL burning little pieces of paper in candles---I don't tell her she is going to HELL--I tell her to stop because she is careless--AND I pray for her ALOT!! I grew up doing ALL of that. That is how I know you and Oakspear are probably gentle and kind people. My mom is--as are all those she hung out with when I was growing up. But, I believe in the God of the bible. I believe He means what He says. That somehow makes ME judgemental?? He says it--I just have my faith in Him. Must be Him that is the one who really irratates??

Some of Lewis' ideas were based on Romans 8:19-23 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Not so far fetched when you consider the whole creation waiting. Does that just mean us? I say go for it--I want to go back to the moon--but we have been there, done that. Must be so amazing!

Just a bit more--She was in TWI-- For A Christian Religious Organization: 1. The most important red flag one should consider and the first question one should ask when considering a church or religious organization to become a part of is: Does this group believe in the Christian Orthodox Historical concept of The Trinity? If they do not, then run, do not walk, away from this organization. Most Christian cults are anti-Trinitarian and will often use this as the basis for their religious organization altogether. Victor Paul Wierwille, founder of TWI, even wrote a book “Jesus Christ is Not God” and this became the cornerstone teaching of The Way. If the group is anti-Trinitarian (they will not refer to their organization or beliefs as such, but essentially, this is what it will boil down to once their specific doctrine on this subject is examined), then they can’t be Christian. These groups will argue vehemently say that this is not so – that merely because they do not uphold this belief does not indicate they are a non-Christian group. They will firmly claim that they “follow Jesus Christ” and therefore must be considered Christian. The fact remains – they either know the Biblical Judeo/Christian God and teach this, or they do not. This God is a God in three distinct persons, all a part of the same ONE God. If they do not, and they teach anything other than Jesus Christ WAS God as He is depicted in John Chapter 1 (see especially verses 1 – 14), then they can not be Christian. 2. Does this group have a charismatic (usually male) founder who received “new revelation” or heard directly from God or an angel, concerning Biblical issues that are distinctive to this group? Does the group consider that this founder/ leader/ teacher/prophet – has the only information from God that is “correct” or “right” or the only information that can lead to salvation? Is this leader “perfect” and never to be questioned? 3. Does this group consider that they are the only “true” Christian group and that all other mainstream Christian sects are “corrupt” or have “fallen away” from the truth? They will often be anti-Catholic and anti-Jew and be very open about this. 4. Does the organization teach that the Bible is flawed, missing parts, improperly translated and corrupted? 5. Is the group public about all the money it receives and what it does with it? Does the organization make a periodic public statement that members can obtain concerning what is happening with all the finances of the organization? If the answer is no to this, that is a worrisome concern and should be considered a sign that this organization has something to hide. If there were any “yes” answers to 1-4 and a “no” to 5, it would be very wise to reconsider any type of involvement what-so-ever with a group that meets these criteria. The very least one should do is research the group thoroughly before becoming involved in an activity or attending any meetings or worship services. This by no means indicates that without exception, the group must be a cult if they agree with the list above, but it certainly heightens their chances of being one. I urge anyone considering an organization with the beliefs described above to reconsider. I hope to help others avoid the heartache that became a six year nightmare for me and my family and almost led to my taking my life. Be aware, be informed, be suspicious when you encounter the description above. Don’t take a step that could mean ruin for your life. Remember this – if a person only knows the Jesus or the god that these cults teach, it could mean that they face eternal damnation. Regardless of how passionate one feels they believe, regardless of how one feels they are serving God, if they don’t know God, then they can’t serve Him. For example – if I believe with all my heart that Louis Farakahan is who he claims to be, Elijah – who is the “true” Jesus Christ, and I believe this with all my heart and every fiber of my being. I believe that as Jesus Christ, Farakahan is my Savior and therefore, I believe I am saved by Jesus – am I saved? Of course not. Jesus Himself warns of this very thing: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - Matthew 7:21-23 I’ve had Mormons in particular write to me and tell me that their “testimony is strong” and if I choose to answer their very passionate e-mails, I won’t be able to persuade them that the Mormon Church isn’t the only “true” church on earth. I write back telling them that I hope and pray they will lose that testimony because regardless of how strongly they feel, if they don’t know Jesus, then they have nothing. If they don’t know the TRUE Jesus of the Bible, the ONLY Jesus who can save them, if they only know the Jesus of the Jehovah’s Witnesses or The Way International or Mormonism or of Farakahan – then they don’t know Jesus. If they don’t know Jesus, no matter how lovely or wonderful they believe their organization is, they are lost, and if they take their final breath believing in their organization’s version of Jesus instead of having the true Jesus in their heart, they’ll die lost. I don’t wish this for anyone, and most importantly, Jesus doesn’t wish this for a single soul, because he died for ALL, and wants everyone to come to Him

I could post many more-but to define a cult from a Christian perspective(Which is what we originally said) is to define their breaking away or denial of BASIC Christian Doctrine--that is the trinity-You may not agree or like it--but that is how they defined us because of our different take on Christinity 101 They still call THE WAY a cult for these reasons. CULTIC BELIEF SYSTEMS CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN: As presented above, a group must first claim to be Christian before they can even be suspected as being a Christian cult. Neither the First Church of Satan, Zen Buddhism nor the United States Boy Scouts claim to be Christian. Therefore, they are even remotely suspected of being Christian cults. Usually, just the name of a specific group will indicate if it claims to be Christian, e.g., Christian Science, Church of Jesus Christ Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI), Unity School of Christianity, Jehovah's 'Christian' Witnesses, The Way, the Worldwide Church of God, etc. DENY CENTRAL CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES: GOD: Across the board, Christian cults always deny the Biblical view of God, namely, one God in three persons. Mormons teach that there are an infinite number of gods who were once men and women. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe there is one big god, Jehovah, and one small god, Jesus. The UPCI insist that God is one person who puts on different masks or titles. Christian Science and Unity School both teach that God is an impersonal principle. The cults might do it in different ways, but they will always reject the Biblical view of God. By contrast, the Christian church has always affirmed the Biblical view of God: one God in three persons. In biblical theology the primacy of the belief in one and only one God is undisputed (Is. 44:6). But the Bible also recognizes three as God: the Father (I Pet.1:2), the Son (John 1:1-18) and the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4). The different definitions: SECULAR DEFINITION CULT - From the Latin "cultis" which denotes all that is involved in worship, ritual, emotion, liturgy and attitude. This definition actually denotes what we call denominations and sects and would make all religious movements a cult. CHRISTIAN DEFINITION CULT - Any group which deviates from Biblical, orthodox, historical Christianity. e.i. They deny the Deity of Christ; His physical resurrection; His personal and physical return to earth and salvation by FAITH alone. This definition only covers those groups which are cults within the Christian religion. It does not cover cults within other world religions such as Islam and Hinduism. Nor does it cover Psychological, Commercial or Educational cults which do not recognize the Bible as a source of reality. http://www.spiritualabuse.org/articles/idencult.html Control Versus Freedom: A Means of Identifying Cults Anne Sanderson They say it takes one to know one. So, as I was a member of a pseudo-Christian cult for many years, I might be in quite a good position to point out to others some of the danger signs to look for in groups claiming to be Christian. There are thousands of denominations around. Many of them can rightly claim to be Christian. We may not entirely agree with all of their views or practices, but the amazing variety of the many constituent parts of the body should serve to help us realise that the various parts of the Body of Christ will also be diverse. If only as much energy was spent checking out the false claimants as we do the genuine ones, we would cause far less injury to the Body of Christ. So let's establish some basic identifying marks of usurpers to membership of the Body of Christ. [1] They will claim to be obedient to God and Christ but, upon examination, their obedience will ultimately be directed to someone else. [2] They will claim to be truly free in Christ, but will actually be in bondage. [3] They will have an adverse effect on those who are free in Christ, enslaving such ones. [4] They will attack the genuine Body of Christ, claiming they are real members whilst genuine members are not. That is not a complete list, but it is quite enough for us to be getting on with for now. You will notice I have not listed various doctrines as the touchstone of orthodoxy, but have homed in on something much more elusive - bondage versus freedom. In a sense, I am working backwards; I am asking you to look at the end result of being in a cult and to compare that with what being a Christian means. To be a Christian is to be set free in Christ; free from bondage to sin and death, and free from satanic deception. Doctrine does play a vital role in this, as can be seen from the amazing reversal of The Worldwide Church of God in recent years. This cult [based on Armstrong's The Plain Truth magazine] held to various false doctrine, including rejection of the Trinity. When the leadership changed and began to see its errors with doctrine, a miracle happened; the group became orthodox and was so humble in admitting its errors that most of its membership went along with the changes. Now they have dropped their Seventh Day Adventist traits, and now they accept the Trinity doctrine. Isn't it thrilling to know that thousands of people who were once in bondage to error have now been set free in Christ? It can happen even on a huge scale, as with this group. These criteria might serve helpful in identifying the cults. For some, just one or two items (for example No. 1, 2 and 3) of the listed criteria is enough to categorized a group as a cult. For other cult groups, most of these criteria are present. The cults deny intensely or cleverly some or all of the doctrines of the Christian faith while at the same time profess themselves as Christians. The most dangerous among these cult group is the Bible -based pseudo-Christianity (or BBPC) which can easily deceive, distract and destroy people. They are always begging for many in ther name of God, expert of fund raising without shame and blasphemy without fear. The cults normally have a dogmatic and legalistic leadership structure with a closed ecclesiastical system. The cults have some secrecy about their leadership personalities and people behind, organizational system, dogmatic teachings, and meetings. They undermine the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ by requiring additional works or co-operation effort. GOD WON"T SPIT IN YOUR DIRECTION! The cults are reducing the absolute authority and sufficiency of Scripture. They expressly accuse the Bible of containing errors. MUST BE A TEXT SOMEWHERE THAT SAYS THIS!! The cults are using the Christian vocabulary-but they mean different things. The cults redefined biblical terms with different meaning for their own gains and benefits. The cults have their own exclusive belief system and practices. The cults by large, rejects and denies the doctrine of eternal punishment. Some says that hell and its fire is not literal fire or punishment. Some are teaching universalism that all will be saved at the end. Some are teaching annihilation that God will destroy into nothing. They teach that there is no conscious eternal suffering. The cults emphasis on direct revelation or vision from God and that God spoke to their leaders. The cults claimed signs and wonders in various forms. Some claims that they have raise a large numbers of genuine Christians from the death. According to the record of the major cults groups, majority of their converts are from mainline denomination churches who are ignorant of the Christian doctrines. These criteria might serve helpful in identifying the cults. For some, just one or two items (for example No. 1, 2 and 3) of the listed criteria is enough to categorized a group as a cult. For other cult groups, most of these criteria are present. Description Check Rejection of the Godhead or doctrine of the Trinity and replaced by their invented ism Rejection of the Deity of Christ or Christ as God including His virgin birth 3 Rejection of Christ's true humanity or the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union Rejection of Christ and replaced by their leader as the "new christ" OR WE REPLACE THE ABSENT CHRIST! Rejection of the Universal Church and claiming that they alone are saved or to be saved. OR HAVE THE ONLY TRUTH!! Rejection of the doctrine of eternal punishment and the reality of hell fire. Rejection of the major biblical doctrines and majoring on the minor doctrines. Rejection of Christ and replaced Him with their leader as the messenger of God.

Chockful, I too agree with these statements--that is also what makes a cult. My point was the Christian definition of a cult--one like TWI claiming to be Christian, is their denial of basic doctrines central to Christianity--the trinity being a main one. I didn't make it up!! That is a fact. The reaction was so telling. Same as I gave in TWI. To All others who asked me about this: Here are just a few definitions from several websites defining cults. I could quote 100's but why bother? We in TWI set out to redefine the church. We can't. What makes Christianity are the central doctrines the Lord's Church adheres to. It defines us as Christian. One truth. If a group does not accept these basic tenents they are on the outside looking in and have to form their own group. They can call it whatever they like--Mormon--Jehova's Witness-Moonies--The Way--it is still a cult. In the Way it is still the same argument--Arius and his doctrine. He was branded a heretic and the way is still called a cult--we just thought he was right. The church does not believe as he did or we did. That is the entire crux--boils down to the trinity. Same darn thing 100's of years later. Where is Arius? Where is The Way?? What should be so telling is the rest of the behavior of the Way--what you mentioned--it seems to go hand-in-hand with the breaking away of basic Christian doctrine. Perhaps there is a reason? Perhaps--just possibly there is a greater understanding of the nature of Jesus--that helps us in our Christian walk. That makes His name all the more sacred and precious and truly saves. Maybe they know something we didn't. Something to chew on at the very least. I know I have for years and come to many different conclusions than I had in TWI. BTW--my church is a non-denominational church--goes under a baptist banner--We have sister churches all over the PLANET--I align myself with teachers like Ravi Zacharias--Matt Chandler--RC Sproul--David Jeremiah--Josh McDowell-John Piper-and more-all trinitarians--all learned men--some of you might REALLY enjoy them. You don't have to believe every word out of their mouths as God breathed. We are capable in our own right of discernment. BTWW I can't understand why this is still a dispute--we didn't like it then--but wore it as a badge of honor(The real truth don't ya know) Maybe they have had it all along?? These are all from different Christians--differing DENOMONATIONS--all the same definition.

I guess I only look at TWI and God's providence in terms of my own life. I never really have considered it too much in the larger scheme. Since it is dwindled from its glory days of larger participation--God seems to have it under control. I know that God's will is not thwarted by man, but man's will can be frustrated by God-should it run contrary to His purpose. I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure. . .Isaiah 46:9-10 The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; He frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation. . .Psalm 33:10, 11 In all that HE does--His plan and purpose HE will be glorified. So, I guess we look for what has glorified God in all of this. Deliverance, Salvation, healing, a keen awareness of His Grace, Love and Mercy in our deliverance. We missed the boat--I think--because to understand God's providence we have to understand His goodness and Holiness. It is how it all fits together. Otherwise, God looks like a meglomaniac, and we have to find a new way to define Him. Seems to me, that is what we did in TWI. Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart, but the counsel of the Lord, it will stand. I guess we did not really understand the greatness and majesty and AUTHORITY of the Lord. Or we could not accept it because we really wanted the reins in our own lives. Not giving over to the Lordship of an "Absent Christ". We really refused to submit to His authority--but gave over all to some very bad men. Go figure??We didn't know Him enough to trust Him. He is worthy of faith. We are not to be afraid of God's sovereignty, but to rest in it. To find comfort in it. The only way to do this is to know His character--His goodness--His Mercy--How He only does good--How He is a rock in a trial--a safe haven in a tempest. To know that He is love, and to also understand He is just, merciful, gracious, but oh so Holy. That His purpose and will are right, and we are to bend to it, because that is the best thing possible. For us-sinners--with flesh--not always the easiest or quickest or even the most pleasant thing, but ALWAYS the best. In TWI--I ran the show. Understanding God's sovereign will was nearly impossible for me. I was way too busy believing for what I wanted. Not what was best for me, but what I wanted. How shocking to find out after TWI--that His will was not thwarted and He was able to use my experience to Glorify Himself to me--in His Mercy and Grace to me in my deliverance from that deadly gospel they preached. People talk about free-will and yes we do have it--it fits with God's goodness. But, God is so perfect and beyond our pea-brain comprehension it is hard for us to "get" that His purpose can be acomplished without overstepping our freewill. There are many verses that imply God controls everything--I think it is a bit more complex than we understand.

It wasn't a tactic. I was offended by the way TWI was portrayed as a nice little bible group Linda. I wrote to express my opinion. I may have mentioned - Suicide-Rape-Abuse-Money Grubbing. I wanted to. I wish the best for this young man as well. If he is seeking God--I --ME--MY opinion is that he is about as far away as he can get in TWI's-gnostic -name it and claim it --absent Christ--gospel. But hey, that is my opinion. I even write "letters to the editor" sometimes. I write my Congressmen and Senators. I write to prisoners. I post here. I didn't write in protest---I wrote because I wanted to. I wrote to express myself--not to speak for anyone else. Hope that helps.

From the "God will give you double" thread. Struck me as one of the funniest things I have read on here. I love it!!