geisha779

I 'll make it simple for YOU--Opinions of men in the bible changed as well--look at the life of Peter. I am still waiting for you to tell me why it is "God Breathed" other than IT SAYS SO?? Other than you have "Faith". Cause that means nothing when trying to prove a point. Right? Sounds like opinion to me. Ought to get some "Facts" to back that up. HMMMMM??? What would they be?? OH OH OH I Know--eyewitness accounts and personal testimony.--But, then we would have to employ YOUR standard wouldn't we? At least to be consistent. Men and woman of the bible--were HUMAN--not SUPER HUMAN --no different than those telling their stories today--Some of those witnesses in the gospels were even HOSTILE to Jesus. Get a clue! Sounds to me like you should spend LESS time being a Wierwille APOLOGIST--and more time learning APOLOGETICS!!

White Dove, If the bible is God breathed and He used eyewitness accounts and the testimony of men to assure us of the resurrection--and it is good enough for Him--why such a greater standard is demanded by you? Hate to tell you how many skeptics have come to Jesus--given a reasonable explanation of those facts. You don't even make any sense--why is it God breathed--cause you think so--or because it proves itself--by its witnesses. What an odd way to look at "Faith"?? Maybe--you just like the message and WANT to believe it--it doesn't seem you have solid reasoning-- what you claim to be asking of others here. BTW---Men --PEOPLE--wrote the bible. Differing language styles--differing perspectives--He wrote the ten commandments--seems if He wanted to--He coulda handed down a tablet with the NT on it. You don't seem to like what the victims of abuse here tell you---so you can twist and turn logic on its head--but they are very credible. Words are cheap--when YOU claim they are--is that the standard? It may be yours--but you have to turn reason on its head to claim it.

This one is for you--The other was Blind Faith------this is Cream! BTW--I was a tyke too--I missed it by a few years--love it anyway!!

First off, I have no idea what answers you are talking about. I thought the name of the thread was "Eyewitness accounts fact or opinion" I am making the point that you believe the most FANTASTIC claim in human history. What is shocking to me --is you say you have "Faith". Most believe it because of the amount of evidence that actually makes it credible. You base your whole outlook on life based on the claim that Jesus was raised from the dead. Yet, you seem to hold no standard by which you believe this FANTASTIC claim. Apparently, you take it "On Faith" that some guy--2000 years ago was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven. You don't know anyone who saw this--you can't quiz them or gauge if they are telling the truth--yet you believe it. Didn't you say "What you have are his words ,his view. I could give you many reasons why that does not qualify as facts" OR "As I pointed out there are lots of differing on the ground eye witness experience and personal testimony. Is just because someone posted here and is of the same mind set as you , does that make them the keeper of facts? Doubtful" Which is it going to be? Why DO you believe that FANTASTIC claim?? What the truth is--is that we believe it--because of the eyewitness and first hand accounts. That is what we have. A strong, no, VERY strong case can be made that it is true--from the record we have. But, we rely HEAVILY on testimony and eyewitnesses. That is usually sufficient to convince an ardent skeptic--when laid out in a reasoned and logical manner. You don't seem to require even a case being made. You take it on "Faith". Yet, when reasonable people come forward in DROVES telling similar stories--people from varied backgrounds, people of "Faith"--people with alot to lose by telling their story--eyewitnesses to these events--you SUDDENLY require new and exacting standards by which they can be deemed credible. Their claims do not include being raised from the dead. One of the compelling things about the bible is that the people who are written about are usually not cast in the best light. Remember poor Peter--rebuked as Satan by Jesus? These victims-- although innocent--may feel some shame at what happened to them.--yet, they are willing to tell their story anyway. It lends them real credibility. At least be consistent in what you require as evidence--maybe it could be that discrediting the abused might make the abusers seem okay. Sorry, doesn't work like that. As for JAL? I really do not see a logical comparison--but if you are more specific--I am sure I can reason it out for you. You seem a bit confused

White dove, I am waiting to see you answer Waysider on this one?? But you said: Acceptance of the resurrection is a matter of faith those that do not believe in the Bible would not necessarily accept the accounts of the Bible. Fortunately we don't have to rely on scripture alone there are other proofs of the resurrection. WHAT?? What do you base your faith on?? A feeling?? That gobbledy gook SIT you learned from VP. Well, there are plenty of non-christians that do that as well, so it is not solid evidence. You better base it on some reason and logic to really believe it. Those eyewitness testimony and personal accounts are the proof we use for the resurrection. That is the convincing evidence. What extra biblical accounts are you speaking of? Do you know what kind of solid case I can build for the resurrection using that testimony alone? As a Christian you should be able to do the same thing. What--you tell people Jesus was raised from the dead and you know it because of "Faith"--yeah that will show em?? The issue of the resurrection takes the whole "Philosophy" of Christianity and places it in history. It validates it. The case for it is so strong. It builds on the foundation of accurate historical portrayal and culminates with EYEWITNESS accounts. You base your whole world view on the fact that it is true!! You do it here--I have watched you. The people that come forward here--they are credible--like the bible accounts about the resurrection--they are a diverse cross-section of people relating similar events. Your whole argument against their testimony falls apart--the minute you mention God or a court for that matter as any kind of authority--they truly are believeable. ADD: I do hope you in some way understand that you base your entire world view--a -christian outlook--on the eyewitness testimony of people dead 2000 years. You can't depose them--they are dead. If they all were held to your standard--no one would believe it. By the way--He showed Himself to women first--their testimony was not valid in court.

You are right. And I don't want to take it off topic --but sometimes the illogical twists just to deny the victims and protect the predators--IRKS!! but I HATE to see a victim revictimized. I am outta here--please don't let my post take it off topic! :)

Hi Yes, his number is retired. In 2010 the new stadium will open, and I imagine they will trot out all the history for that. By then they will have been Twins longer than Senators. If Chicago falters with Quentin out, the Twins have a more realistic shot of taking the division. BoSox--SEEM to have the wildcard sewn up. It would be interesting(If the Mets win) to see Santana VS Liriano in a series. If the Twins could only play the REST of their schedule like they do at home--and Morneau stays hot--it could happen. Looking for the Twins-White Sox series this month at the Dome. Everyone complains about the Dome--newer than Fenway and you can take your whole family for the price of one Boston Ticket--You can buy Twins tickets on the day of the game--if you want to see Boston--you better plan ahead! I love the Dome. But--I do LOVE fenway more.

Thanks for telling me what you believe cman. I dare say we believe entirely differing things. Just curious what you base this understanding on--but its okay if you don't want to answer. Just an aside--if this is the case, when does someone like Hitler--or Stalin have their breakthrough? Is God a man that He should lie when He says. . . . . . . Hebrews 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the One who has said, Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge His people. 31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God! There is more than one way to insult grace cman--just think about that for a moment--these are difficult verses to come to, but If God is worthy ---and He is---He is Just--That is part of the greatness and wisdom of God--Part of His love--a higher love than man's love. And. . . . . He is no respecter of person. Either way--thanks for the answer! :)

White Dove, I am confused? Do you accept eye witness testimony and personal testimony as evidential or not? If so, then what's the problem with laying blame where it belongs--Jesus usually turned it on the accusers when the victims were accused by the religous "men"-- the Whited Sepulchures of the day --the Pharisees. Seems people here make that similar distinction. Wouldn't God expect the same reasoned judgement from you? If not--I wonder that you use God as a standard at all. CONSIDERING, we use eyewitness account and personal testimony as evidence for the RESURRECTION of Jesus. That is how we can believe it. Pretty solid evidence if you ask me? Over 500 eyewitnesses---lots of personal testimony--it would all hold up in a court today. Seems you are willing to accept that as true? Something written 2000 or so years ago?

Hi cman I don't think they are the same thing--not interchangeable.I don't think I said that? I am really -- honestly---trying to follow you. You have to cut me some slack--I am a blonde. If you tell me who you think the Holy Spirit is--it will help me greatly to understand where you are coming from. It may make your response click with me. :) We are body--soul or if you like, spirit creatures. I think we agree on that? Or maybe not? There are a couple schools of thought on this--trichotomous-dichotomous, I am not sure where you land. I am not sure it is all that important which way we think on this--meaning it doesn't really impact our salvation. But, interesting all the same.

Twinky Congratulations!! Yeah, it IS kinda a big deal! Lucky kitties! I bet you enjoyed that--they have claimed ownership of you!! You are now their person. Oh, did you think it worked the other way? That they are your cats? No no no. . . . doesn't work that way. Now, if you can keep them from claiming your pillow every night as my cats do--you are all set. My guys know when we are ready for bed and they tear upstairs and one goes on my pillow and the other on hubby's. We move them--fall asleep and each wake-up with a cat staring at us from the lofty position at the top of our pillow piles!! They win. Nice job Twinky--it does take lots of love and time. If you go away again--they may just start leaping on your shoulders and follow you all around!!

Cman Not trying to be obtuse--I don't understand your confusion. I am not saying you don't have a point. I just don't quite get what you are saying. How is any of this a problem? Could be me not hearing you, but I am interested in what you see--that I don't. Geisha Are you refering to freewill?

MSTAR--you posted something done in Northampton--I was in Northampton today! Gordon Lightfoot is coming to the Calvin--not Jazz or Blues but might be fun--they do have some good music there.This one is for you groovy posters--I missed that era--just by a little--must have been FUN!! :)

That is so true! I was speaking of an objective truth. Which I believe can be known in the person of Jesus Christ. :) you hit the nail on the head. Thanks! None of us know all truth--but we can know the one who is all truth! I don't expect you to use my standard Bramble. I am sorry if you thought I was hopping all over you--not my intent--I was trying to converse, but probably did it badly. I need to be more careful in my choice of words. --hope that helps. :) Geisha

Hey cman I really hope you don't mind me responding--we don't always see eye to eye---but what a great topic--I am going to surprize you and agree with you a bit. It is not we who completely change ourselves. We must be convicted in our hearts before we even see our need for salvation. That is the minstry of the Holy Spirit. John 16:8-11 When He comes, He will convict the world about sin, righteousness, and judgment: 9 about sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; 11 and about judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. The world has no definitive sense of righteousness. In 1 Corinthians 4:3-5 Paul says, "I don't even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.... He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts" . We damn ourselves if we measure ourselves by ourselves. We must follow the one true standard of righteousness--Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit wants to show us the righteousness of Christ so we'll understand our sinfulness. Once we see our need for a Savior we are to confess Him (Jesus) as Lord. Does any old Jesus do? Can we make Him who we would like Him to be--or is He real? Will the Jesus of the Muslim faith save you? I tend to think not--as we are warned by Paul in 2 Corinthians of another Jesus--I didn't put it in there, Paul did. So, when we confess Him--the Jesus of the bible as Lord. Are we instantly transformed--or does the Lord do this? What is transformation? I know that when I repented of my sin--it was enough to knock me to my knees--it wasn't a quick--I have sinned--forgive me. It was something that I will never forget, because the weight of what I had done--against a Holy God--was on my shoulders and it nearly felled me. The start of transformation was when I accepted Jesus as my Savior. It is the Lords work-- Romans 8:29 For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 2 Cor 3:18 We all, with unveiled faces, are reflecting the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory; this is from the Lord who is the Spirit. It is the Lord who transforms us. Phil 1:6 6 I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus Col 1:22 But now He has reconciled you by His physical body through His death, to present you holy, faultless, and blameless before Him — We are Jesus' gift to God--it is His work--not our own. But how does transformation happen? Well, one of the ways we find in Romans--affliction and trial. . . . . Romans 5:2 Also through Him, we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also rejoice in our afflictions, because we know that affliction produces endurance, 4 endurance produces proven character, and proven character produces hope. James 1: 2 Consider it a great joy, my brothers, whenever you experience various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 4 But endurance must do its complete work, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking nothing. 5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to all generously and without criticizing, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith without doubting. For the doubter is like the surging sea, driven and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 An indecisive man is unstable in all his ways. 9 The brother of humble circumstances should boast in his exaltation; 10 but the one who is rich [should boast] in his humiliation, because he will pass away like a flower of the field. 11 For the sun rises with its scorching heat and dries up the grass; its flower falls off, and its beautiful appearance is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will wither away while pursuing his activities. 12 Blessed is a man who endures trials, because when he passes the test he will receive the crown of life that He has promised to those who love Him. 13 No one undergoing a trial should say, "I am being tempted by God." For God is not tempted by evil, and He Himself doesn't tempt anyone. 14 But each person is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own evil desires. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death. 16 Don't be deceived, my dearly loved brothers. 17 Every generous act and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights; with Him there is no variation or shadow cast by turning. 18 By His own choice, He gave us a new birth by the message of truth so that we would be the firstfruits of His creatures. God does not tempt us--it is when we are carried away by sin--but in these trials--we learn about our sin--we learn NOT to sin! We are being refined--. Hebrews 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time based on what seemed good to them, but He does it for our benefit, so that we can share His holiness. A Christians life is often a real struggle between flesh and God--But, HIS refining work transforms us from sin to Godliness. That is when you see transformation in a person. When God is at work. Remember whom God chooses--James 2:55 Listen, my dear brothers: Didn't God choose the poor in this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that He has promised to those who love Him? If I know I am a sinner--I will not judge those who sin--why would I?? I am a sinner. I offer the Lord and His gift of salvation to those seeking--It has nothing to do with me--or my goodness-just the opposite. Really - Truly--the opposite. I know I have sinned!! I know we ALL sin. I don't think the Holy Spirit is in everyone--that runs contrary to scripture and would make Jesus' death and ressurection pointless. The Holy Spirit is sent to convict and then comfort, He testifies of God. That is His ministry-- John 15:26 26 When the Counselor comes, the One I will send to you from the Father —the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father—He will testify about Me. John 14:26 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit &md;the Father will send Him in My name&md;will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have told you. It doesn't appear to be all inclusive-- John14:17 He is the Spirit of truth. The world is unable to receive Him because it doesn't see Him or know Him. But you do know Him, because He remains with you and will be in you. If Jesus is not the only way to God--to heaven-- He lied, and there is no point in believing on Him--He had to lead a sinless life. BTW-- We don't glory or boast in transformation--it is His work--when we pray--we remember He does a good work in us--He can have faith in His OWN good work. He created this transformation in us--so we are grateful and joyous! If there is no transformation--time to ask for saving faith! Obedience, out of Love for God also transforms us--His Love transforms us--His grace does--it is All His work. I am a pathetic sinner--I need ALL the help I can get. I boast in Him and Glory in the cross!

dmiller,I really do enjoy your music posts. dmiller--I get that you are musician--I live with one--my kid is sem-pro and EXACTING in what he likes. I sometimes think you guys with the ear listen and hear a whole other language!! I loved the Steve Martin video--never would have seen it if you had not posted it. I always look at this thread. Thanks! Keep em coming--I need the diversity in my music tastes! bfhThanks for the Madonna video--took me down memory lane--I used to live for that song "Borderline"--you are great at picking music--please consider doing more as I really enjoy your choices. Thanks

That is fair enough--I was refering to the "Hell" thread. This thread was in response to that thread which was in response to the cult theology thread---All the same topic---just differing parts of a larger discussion. To me an interesting one--I see a new thread dealing with the same issue--new angle. I like that we can talk about this. I think you and other non-christians have VALID observations and I do listen and THINK about them. Let me just say this--when you share your perspective on TWI--or some ideas concerning your new faith--I appreciate them. I can even sometimes agree with you. But, you and I do have very different perspectives. However, we were both hurt by TWI--how we have reacted to that hurt is different--I went toward the God of the bible--you in another direction. It in no way means I cannot empathize or care about your hurt while still remaining true to Christ--in fact to remain true--I empathize greatly. We will not always AGREE--but since I do value your posts--I hope we can at least discuss and treat each other with respect. I certainly recognize that you are a person who deserves my respect. I just get confused by presupposition concerning my motives and words. As I have been overly careful NOT to malign your belief system. Now, TWI on the other-hand--well, I DO have at it sometimes. And Bramble it feels good to get it out! You may not accept my beliefs as true--but I cannot lie or tip toe because you may find it contrary. No catharsis in that.

Ranting? See--case-in point--I was NOT ranting?? I thought I was discussing. You are not the only one who was hurt by TWI--but I see if I am ever to talk to you it will be another great big tip-toe. Fine--I don't tip-toe around issues. Why should I--I did that for years. I assume we are adults and firm and reasoned enough now in our own convictions to have a conversation. I don't consider YOU an authority on GOD-Jehovah-Elohim. Yet, that in no way precludes you from telling us your thoughts. Often a character asassination on someone I claim a kinship with. I LOVE Him Bramble--more than I love my own life. Say what you will about Him--but I will speak-up if you malign Him. He matters more to me than anything. I think you just called me intolerant--there it was the whole time--right below the surface--I knew it. We tip toed around THAT one for awhile. Can't IMAGINE the fire storm Bramble--if anyone actually started talking about what the BIBLE says about witchcraft. Oakspear You are RIGHT--excellent observation about what they call a Christian. I agree with you and DO appreciate that perspective. Made me think and it was right on the money. Geisha

Hey Bramble, I have been to their website several times--their stats are based on their descriptions of a Christian. Not on the bibles. Again--the threads lately all intertwine on this very topic. That is what I am asking or talking about? What makes a Christian---who is defining?? That is usually when the implication of intolerance crops up. I appreciate yours and other non-christian perspectives on this--I really am learning alot. But, I gotta tell you Bramble--I myself have not maligned your faith. I have repeatedly said I can assume from the path you have chosen what kind of person you might be, this kind and gentle comment I have often made. I REALLY think that. Paganism doesn't SHOCK me. That is from my experiences with Wiccans. I am somewhat careful not to call your practices names. You on the otherhand have engaged in character assassination against the God of the bible. Objecting to the idea of a loving God who, in your mind, cannot be reconciled to the existence of Hell. After several very bright and articulate posters clarified this for you(Myself excluded)you still continued to do this. BTW, not a new query? Atheists often use this argument. God has even been compared to Hitler by some. Careful not to offend you--I did not share the EX_WITCH website with you because I KNOW proselytizing can be an insult. Only when you expressed a need to speak of your experiences here at GSC--did I think it might be a benefit to you. BECAUSE--it mentions specifically TWI in the WELCOMING letter to Pagans. It goes on to say--if you are looking for a way OUT of Paganism and want Christianity--they don't do that there--they will refer you to another ministry. Yet, you assumed I was offering you a lifeline. NO, I was sharing something of interest. The assumption was ALL on your part. You AGAIN, thought I was trying to save you. The first time you told me you were not interested--I heard you--I told you "I get it". You have since assumed I am trying to deliver you from your faith. I am not. The non-christians here are a minority--but your voices are clear--you are all bright and articulate people--but, I in no way think that gives you latitude to make others a target of your misunderstandings of THEIR faith. That leaves me with a perception of intolerance for Orthodox--or evangelical Christianity. You yourself have eschewed the faith--why set yourself up as judge of it. If you have a question--as you did--pose it--but when you engage in character assination of God-then there are some here who will strongly answer you. I like that you explain your practices --when you do--I am interested in the foundations of your belief system. The bible being mine--I would like to know where yours comes from. Oral tradition is interesting to me. As you are keenly aware--many aspects of your faith are addressed in the bible. I see no Christian hitting you over the head with this--but perhaps a dialogue would be of some beneit for us. The trouble is, it would be perceived as intolerant--so things go on without being discussed. Such a shame. It is a doctrinal forum. I just don't want to insult or hurt you--so we don't really talk. If I forsake what the bible says--we are good--if I tell you what it says--there is war. It is intolerance--but if you don't believe it--why don't we really talk about it?

First Jeff--thanks for your service. I don't care if it was twenty years ago or yesterday--You have my thanks. Of course we are to obey God rather than men--but moreover, we are to remove ourselves from false teaching and doctrine. We obey the Lord--and His example is obedience unto death. Who is it that will judge you? Is it "Leadership"? No, it is Jesus Christ who is your judge--HE will judge all. So, if in your understanding you are told to do something you know to be wrong--don't do it. It doesn't get much clearer. What is it that is wrong or evil that God would EVER EVER ask you to do? As for going beyond or opposed to what is written-- 1 Cor 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. I just find it ironic that the "Leadership" of TWI or its "Splinters" with all their "Special knowledge" don't have the ethics of most unbelieving decent people. I know MANY gay couples who are faithful in their "unions'. Who know adultery is WRONG!! Most people I know who do not claim the name of Jesus --will go OUT of their way NOT to hurt others!!! God's law is written on their hearts. Look what happens when a conscience is seared. They can't tell right from wrong--and try to spread it like a disease. You know what is right in YOUR heart--and you are responsible for YOUR heart--and God is working in YOUR heart---they are answerable for their own. These are the guys who would have stoned the prophets. You are in good company---keep looking to Him--not men and all this becomes clearer. ALSO: Roman 13:1 Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. 2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do good and you will have its approval. 4 For government is God's servant to you for good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is God's servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong. 5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience. 6 And for this reason you pay taxes, since the [authorities] are God's public servants, continually attending to these tasks. 7 Pay your obligations to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor. The difficulty here is discerning God's will in areas where the bible does not specifically speak to us. This requires determining biblical principles rather than explicit commands. This is our duty--otherwise we can be disobeying God's will. Obeying God against a government may result in incurring the governments wrath, but this can put a Christian in good company Matthew 5: 11, 12

I wonder "Oak" how tolerant you were of Paganism--while claiming Christianity? Now, I have to tell you---TWI was anything but a humble and meek group of people--we were marked out by arrogance, so it may be a moot point. To be fair here, I have to look at this honestly. Christianity CAN appear exclusive---and it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to respect your faith as TRUE. But, should there be a witch hunt revival--and they sought to burn a few withches(I do live in MA)I am sure I would fight against it. :) That would be part of my faith. That is not to say I would want Wiccan's or Pagan's on the Church bulletien as has happened in a place I have worshipped. Put on there by the Chaplain. The wife of a very famous musician. It took Evangelical Christians coming in protest and actually in a position of authority at the school to raise the issue. All other "Christians" were content to allow them to express themselves(Wiccans-Pagans) IN THE CHAPEL. My very good friends moved here and the hubby is the CFO of the school. He and his wife fought a very political battle to have the Wiccan and Pagan agenda removed from the church. NOT from the school. It was so so so interesting to watch this. The Chaplain had clout as her husband was a big draw for students to come to the school. It is a boarding school that cost MORE than most colleges. It was founded by a Christian(DL Moody)--but had long since left its roots to embrace cultural diversity. The President(Nice man)came from the state department having been an undersectratary. He was a diplomat who refused to actually take a stand. My friends had to fight this without looking like they were discriminating against a religion. It went on foer a year. It got heated--it got UGLY--and eventually the Chaplain left the school. Why was it such an important thing to have them removed? The Chapel is for Christian worship--to have what most Christian consider idolatry---functioning as a legitimate religious faith---within the Chapel---was offensive. But not to all--it was that way for the bible believing--Jesus following Christians. The PAgan's were not disbanded. They were just not allowed to meet and worship in the Chapel. The two faiths could not share the space. The Wiccan's didn't mind--it was a certain element within the Christian community. Is that intolerant? Wiccan's were given there own place--much better suited for their practices--although the Chapel is a great old stone Gothic looking structure. They were not booted from campus. I watched a similar thing happen there when I went to hear J.C Watts speak at the school. A Christian politician--the gay groups on campus--they were in an uproar --outraged before he opened his mouth. I watched a girl have to be led away from the Mike during Q&A because she was so upset--he is against gay marraige. She called him all kinds of things. As the school invited him--it was a bit embarassing all around. You could see the seething on her part. You could see the glee on the pagans part--and the outrage that there was a distinction drawn between them and Christians as those welcome at the Chapel. I live in a very very liberal and diverse place--college towns everywhere--I see Christians labeled as intolerant all the time. It smacks of hypocrisy to me--if I don't accept pluralistic relativist truth--without even a conversation--I am labeled intolerant. So, if I am not living my faith correctly--it may be justified, but if I am--it is hypocritical. I see it on these doctrinal threads as well. Non-Christians seem to say whatever they want about Christianity--and sometimes Christians--were I to get into what I believe about idolatry--the roof would come down on my head--notice I said what I, I, I, I, believe. The concept of Hell bothers some--it runs contrary to THEIR thinking and therefore irritates. No, seems the whole intolerance thing--is just a way of saying--you have to accept all faiths as legitimate--I can't make proclamations according to the bible--but we can trash the God of the bible. That doesn't motivate me when people call God names. AND YES-sometimes I really do agree with you on issues. You are well thought out and I appreciate that in a person. I also recognize true statements and logical thought. This thread has been dancing around the issue of intolerance--I think it comes from non-christians a bit more readily than Christians.

Good song FUNNY VIDEO--Ben Stiller-Jack Black-Robert Downey JR

Belle, Hi. Much like you--I rethought all my beliefs after TWI--do you know -- Hubby and I actually ran a Christian youth group--taught the kids---and I didn't believe there was a God. LOL I am not kidding. Because of TWI--I don't tell people they are going to hell. It is not my call. God says that I am without excuse as the creation proclaims Him. What if someone never heard the name Jesus--but they believed on God?? So, I REALLY don't know--that is truly the Lord's call. I don't mind telling them where I think TWI was really messed up and the Orthodox understanding of salvation-. . . . . and all the rest. I do believe that the bible is the truth, but CERTAINLY not because of TWI--in fact--I still will not use a King James version of the bible. I could tell you why I now believe it, but really--you are seeking these things out yourself-I am content to let you and Bramble-Abby and others walk your own path. When I talk about my faith--it is just that--mine. I think people have the problem that some of us do believe it--and IT seems exclusionary---and because it doesn't mean truth to others---they may percieve us as exclusionary. Nothing I can do about that. I am head over heels in love with Jesus. I know Him to be good--beyond really. Hard to explain something so amazing to one who does not see it. I still care about people right now--and not just to "change" them. It is just in many of us--yourself(I suspect) included--to love!! :)

Hi Bramble, Yes, I do really agree with you--change is not always bad--neither are denominations--this is actually the example I cited to you in my post concerning the reformation. Good question about Orthodoxy, I thought that might be a confusion. I speak of NO paticular church or denomination when I use the term Orthodox. I use it in a theological sense. Contextual theological orthodoxy, much of where we have been since the reformation--evangelicalism might sound more familar, but I think that term carries way too much baggage. I don't even like to use it and I am more-or-less an evangelical. Orthodox theology rests on the supposition that scripture is God-breathed so to speak--sola scriptura--a concept I had a tough time with after TWI--It also has a community--boundries and it is more a conversation than edict. I hope that makes sense? Theology is not a bad word--it is a fun topic--But within the Christian community--there has to be a dialogue. TWI and groups like it--are seperated by THEOLOGY and by practice. They are left with no boundry or community--they can say and practice what they will-but it does not make it accepted Christianity. If there are so many divergent, and sometimes apparently conflicting interpretations, how can we be sure that our understanding of our faith is correct, that is, faithful to the Judaeo-Christian Tradition? Is it possible to recognize the one faith in the different interpretations? Does pluralism not become an ideology of adaptation when what is adapted or inculturated is considered to be correct? Should we not, perhaps, re-introduce at least some basic and universal truths, conceptually expressed and accepted as such? (Bevans 1992, 18; quoting de Mesa and Wostyn) Hope that helps explain how I use Orthodox.

Okay--I am wandering OOOOPS I mean wondering--what the heck is he doing these days?? How the mighty have fallen.