geisha779

Hi Twinky Maybe these verses will help. 2 Cor 1 I hope you will put up with a little more of my foolishness. Please bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with the jealousy of God himself. I promised you as a pure bride to one husband—Christ. Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Ephesians 1:9-10 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself: 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth - in Him. Ephesians 5:31-32 31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. . . . . . In a marriage we are one flesh. One body. Couldn't we be members of the body of our bridegroom? Similar to the mystery of one flesh in a marraige? What if God Himself in the person of Jesus came and did this? Now that would just blow us away--huh? It would make it pretty darn spectacular! Might also help us understand a bit how God can be One. Something to consider I guess. I hope JJuedes comes to shed some light on this. :) I am no theologian.

Most Community Colleges do have credits that transfer to a 4 year school. They have matriculation to State and other Universities--they are almost always set up in a transfer manner. Same with technical colleges. College 100 courses do not transfer, but they are not always needed--unless you have been out of school for awhile and forgot how to write, add or subtract---most Community Colleges will just let you test out of them. Community Colleges are a great way to get back to school. Many people do their first two years there and transfer to a 4 year school. I would encourage anyone looking to get back to school to check out their local CC. Ask about transfer. It is a great place for non-traditional students to get their feet wet again. It is less expensive and can actually be a better education than a 4 year school. Smaller classes. I used to advise at a CC and tutor History to ESL and non-traditional students. I love the CC system. It attracts some great educators. Just like Atlanta Bible College--Emporia probably would have had to change some core doctrines to become accredited as a theological institution. It may have been different in the 1970's.

Hi Brushstroke, Thank you for your wonderful post. You are speaking of Christianity here. A personal, intimate love relationship with the Lord Jesus. One where we desire Him above all else? Things like being broken, suffering, picking up your cross, and holiness were not really big in TWI from what I can remember. We were more than conquerors. Having done all. . .STAND!! We had the language down pretty good, but it meant something very different. I was in it and I can't even explain it. But TWI and the faith you articulate are two different things. You are speaking of two entirely different things. Being broken, and emptied--to be filled. Hmmm. Having faith in Him--not only because the word says so--but because He has revealed Himself--?? We know Him personally. Obeying not because we believe the word only, but because we know Him intimately, deeply trust and love Him above all else. We seek to please Him. Panting as a deer after Him--not a knowledge of Him. . . But Him. Hard to put my finger on, but the difference for me now is. . . Christianity is the person of Jesus Christ--not the words about Him. It is actually Him. BTW TWI did teach something about practicing the presence of God--staying your mind--entirely different than the divine presence you speak of--the one that drops you to your knees with words of praise or silent tears of awe. Again--pretty hard to really explain. I enjoyed your posts.

When I was a WOW I was sent to the limb city. The limb leader had a problem with his neighbor--the neighbor's lawn died and everyone elses was green. The limb leader said it was because the guy was a problem--God killed the other guys lawn for opposing the limb leader. What a crock. Didn't this whole thing start because VP looked around and saw little of the "abundant life" in his congregation? Seems to me he ran around finding theology that supported his idea of what the abundant life meant. What if he was wrong? What? Ooops sorry? Maybe he just didn't get it--he obviously didn't like what most other Christian denominations taught and believed. The whole thing seems to have built on what VP thought the bible meant by certain terms--abundance-power-grace/sin-the Holy Spirit--JCING--believing. IMHO it was his own personal theology--his quest for whatever. . . little to do with Christianity--hard to have when Jesus is absent. VP didn't LIKE Christianity--the Church or Holiness!!! What made us think he alone figured it all out?? Oh yeah, I remember--snow on the gas pumps. Big of him to share it with us and leave a wake of destruction along the way. I should have known when I heard abortion was A-okay because of "Breath Life". Itching ears

OMG I am so glad I saw this. Thanks--excellent photos. That doesn't look like fear--I think it is a dignity issue! LOL I have to tell you--if you painted white on the other side of the nose--Tuxy would look just like my Dickie. I get such a kick out of your cats. The shrub thing must be universal--when my guys first began SNEAKING outside. . . :) I would go look for them and always find them cowering in the yews. Those were the days--with 8 acres to roam they have gotten bolder. Just takes time. I am happy that you were forgiven and I imagine it was just the drama of the whole thing. Not personal. LOL They will get used to it and stay in the garden. Is Crypto next? BTW Tuxy coat shines with no matting or bald spots--looks so healthy. How do they relate to strangers? As secure and bold and demanding as my guys are--they are shy around guests. They will stay in the room and even give a sniff, but they are wary. How do they do with your Mum? When I was a kid--one of my friends had a Maine Coon Cat. Beautiful animal--mean though. They would tether it to a stake in the back garden--the lead was maybe 5 feet long. The cat had a wide circle in which to roam. Never got tangled or loose. It was the funniest sight. This cat leashed like a dog in the back of the house. They could never train it to stay because it was a wee bit wild. It was a coon cat--whatever that is. If you think harnassing a cat is a challenge. . . . . I used to walk my sheep with a harness. They actually sell a lead and harness designed for sheep. Now, sheep are not the brightest animals, but they are big and strong and REACTIONARY!! When you try to leash them--they actually grow a brain and try to outwit you. . . LOL I used to have to slam them up against the barn wall, hold them still with my hip and side, and get the harness on. You have seen me. . . I am not that big--it was a real battle of wits. I USUALLY won! Then they walked me around the property!! Okay, I have to tell you one more funny animal story. This is actually my favorite. We have a farmhouse with land and we had a huge barn. We did a big veg garden and that was so fun, we tried animals. Sheep and chickens. One day we had to get the chickens rounded up for the health lady who came once a year to check them Do you know what fly paper is? Those long tacky strips you hang to catch flies? We had a few hanging in the barn. Well, my husband got one stuck to the side of his head while chasing the chickens. Bad enough right? Yuck. While trying to catch the chickens one flew up and got STUCK on the fly paper stuck to hubby's head. He had a flapping panicked chicken STUCK TO HIS HEAD. LOL Oh Twinkie, it was the funniest thing I have ever seen. He was a bit freaked--the chicken was freaked and I was laughing so hard I cried. When I ran out he yelled "Where are you going?" I said "To get the camera of course" LOL Somewhere I have a picture of hubby with a chicken stuck to his head. You want to talk about a dignity issue? Pets are fun!

He didn't say VP taught a gospel of an impersonal God. He said Based on New thought theology--and they are. VP taught the verse "Come let us reason together" I remember it--it had an impact--it is where I learned that verse--floored me. Those verses you quoted are not impersonal. Of course you need to believe when you pray. What are you going to be praying for if you believe and know God--something outside His will? Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. You don't override God's will with prayer--but you can reason and talk to a personal God. It is a relationship. He allows us to reason and ask and relate with Him very personally. Intimately. He will do amazing things when we ask. It also says you have not because you ask not.

My Advanced clas was about the DEVIL!! LOL To me this makes sense. John said "Based On". Think about it for a minute. . . . if we tithed--we would prosper. If we believed God....He was held to His word and had to do it---promises. . . God is not a man that He should lie. Right? What if it isn't the best thing for us? HE is a PERSONAL God and knows what we need to come to Him. He is the very best thing there is--He gives us the best--He wants us to come to Him. Prosperity can sometimes get in the way. He knows what we can handle. He knows our hearts and our weakness. We have Faith in Him, not what we think He says. He uses judgement concerning us--knows us better than we do. . and does what is best. Not everyone prospers. It is up to God. . . He judges, reasons, and decides. Sometimes prosperity is a really bad thing. It can take your eyes off God. Need can actually be a blessing and bring you to the foot of the cross. If it were a law--God wouldn't be making those judgements based on what He knows is best. Because He is so gracious He will show us the "Why" sometimes--it is His nature and it is a relationship. For me, John made sense there. Besides Christians give to HONOR Him--because we know He is Worthy and because no matter how much. . . we owe all we have to His gracious hand.

Hi Tonto, I am so glad you tried and liked it! It is the best apple bread I have found. We are now in the apple zone here! I am making everything on the thread and freezing apples. It is a nice cozy time, but it always means winter is near--now I can take out my frozen apples and bake on a snowy cold day. I love it!!

Okay, if that doesn't encapsulate much of the TWI mindset. . . . I don't know what does. There you have it. The Abundant Life . . . . LOL. . . .

What is irksome to me is even with a degree mill title, we all called him Doctor. I don't even call my primary Care --"Doctor", I call him Ray. I know many people with Ph.D's and most of them don't use Doctor at all. A few in their professional life, but most don't run around wanting to be called the "Doctor". It was a big ego stroke. I think those "Critics" got to him more than we realize. Where did VP get his undergrad degree? It is rare that people will get their graduate degree at the same institution as their undergrad degree, but why didn't he just stay at Princeton Theological for the ph.D? Just curious. As for people here and what they post. . . . isn't this a forum about TWI? What seems like "anger" to some can also be seen as healthy dialogue by others. Who TWI are and what they do--should be exposed. How can you expose them without it rousing a certain degree of anger? ESPECIALLY if you LIVED some of the horror and wasted years of your life involved, and have a conscience. Not everyone still thinks they learned the truth in TWI. Many are coming to the realization that we were duped. That God didn't give VP all this special knowledge. That we were NOT the special elite--but, that can be a slow and often painful process. But ya know what? It is important. It really is important. It helps us heal. Putting it all together, by bouncing it off each other, is such a human way of dealing with ---what was a huge part of our lives. Important to examine for a healthy life--I think. This is a good way to do it-- Besides, these posts are just that--small snippets of a discussion--I am sure we all function just fine IRL. Jesus never forgave the Pharisees--he told them their end--Paul also was bold in proclaiming the end of false teachers. So are we. Expose them for who and what they are. . . . warn others. . . . keep ourselves safe. . .and relate to the FEW people in this world who can truly understand what we went through. There are not THAT many of us for goodness sakes. I watch these arguments and think to myself. . . . it always comes down to how much you still adhere to "Way Dcotrine". WWJD???. . . .the Jesus I know would have plenty to say about the abuse. . . . none of it pretty. That was the stuff He swiftly condemned!

Ham, His critics started in his own denomination when he resigned. This is not specifically about his PHD, but the criticism began early on. . . "After his return (1957), Wierwille resigned from the ministry of the Evangelical and Reformed Church. This resignation seems to have been motivated by the denomination. One of the officials of the denomination later reported on the incident, saying," Because of certain remarks which (Wierwille) made criticizing the Church and the Government of India, a riot erupted in one of our stations. Upon his return to Ohio, a church (committee)...conducted a hearing with Mr. Wierwille. Because of his feelings and attitudes for the church, he was advised to withdraw as a minister. Another early critic was Gordon Walker a minister for Campus Crusade. He called VP a false Prophet early on in the ministry. David Anderson--who said Vp sold out for money. CRI. Walter Martin would be someone VP would have considered a critic. J.L Williams. Basically anyone early on who really looked at TWI. CAN would be another. Many church leaders who spoke out against TWI. There were critics who spoke up---many ---Hope this helps.

Roy, In the Prayer Forum there is a lovely thread for you with many people sending prayers and love your way. Please check it out when you get a chance. Geisha

This is grossly improper, and illegal from the standpoint of the IRS. No one except VP knew how much money was in the bag, nor how it was spent, nor was it likely accounted for in TWI financial records, nor was it likely reported to the IRS as personal income when VP used it for himself. This is an open door for VP to use the money for himself instead of the ministry. Hi Pastor, Let me be clear here. I don't know what was done with the money once it was on the motor coach. I do know that we carried it out there and it was alot of money. We put it in the bags we were given and out it went. I only saw this twice. It left with VP. I assume it was SOP. It may have benn different other times, but I doubt it. Grossly improper? Remember who we are speaking of here. Many grossly improper things went on in that motor coach. I think we call them felonies. A man who so cruelly handles young women is not likely to have suddenly grown a conscience where the IRS is concerned. "In their greed they will exploit you". In our church an outside firm handles the money--recording names--keeping records--making deposits. Our Pastor is so careful with it as well. Trust me, we asked. Oh and I know of at least one limb who held some serious money in gold and silver dollars. At one time it was under the limb leaders bed. I am not kidding. Oh and the gold. . . it was in a currency that I am pretty sure was illegal to have in the US.

Well, I didn't say hubby thought it was Godly behavior. In fact, he thought this guy unhinged, but, he used a firearm to intimidate hubby and it worked. Hubby was afraid of him. It wasn't until I came along that he got away from him. That wasn't all he did to people BTW. I have a list of real life horror stories. There are others who post here--who knew this guy. They may have had different experiences, but I do know someones ex--who walked out with a string of cusses and anger and didn't look back. Good for him--we wish we had done the same. We talk about the what-ifs sometime. He was the big MOG of the region. I will say this--hubby did love this guys wife and kids--his brother and sister-in-law are among the kindest people you ever want to meet. But, hubby still has a hard time speaking of this guy without a string of invective and the guy has been dead a few years. It was a big deal. I mean why did any of us put up with it? Woman raped and drugged who remained. Woman chased and hounded and nearly driven insane. Why suicide instead of just leaving? Stupid choices. I had a stalker--we kept it "in house". I could have gone to the police. I bet many of us at one time or another could have. Abused people often stay in relationships--relationships take many forms--why did any of us stay? I honestly don't know. I know now what I would do--but this is now--that was then. A whole different mindset and understanding. Crazy huh? I am glad you retained your wits-I didn't have any to begin with--I grew em post TWI. True. We allowed ourselves to be submissive to men who abused--we thought we were serving a greater good. We were fooled. Again--if I knew then what I do now--my life would be different--better youth, more productive service to my fellow man and a whole lotta shouting down TWI from the rooftops. Hubby just said--if it was "Healing wholeness" for the women. What were they doing with the guys? Intimidation and fear. Guess it all depends on who you were around.

Pastor, There are many places you can hear a "Health and wealth" gospel. Not just TWI. Did Jesus really call us ALL to prosperity? Isn't the abundant life really found in Him--who is life. Does that verse (John 10:10) really have to do with material abundance at all? Isn't our life an abundant one--when filled with Him who is the best possible thing to offer? We can be poor and still have an abundant life in Jesus. Other than basically a complete denial of Jesus-- What makes TWI different than any of these other "Ministries" who teach prosperity? Creflo Dollar--Benny Hinn-Joyce Meyers. . Prayer of Jabez. . . . . and how do people get to the place that they see abundance and fufillment as more of Him? I really want to know. There is nothing wrong with material abundance--but not all Christians have it--some suffer poverty--persecution--martyrdom--illness--pain--prison--the Lord loves and blesses them too. Some with a deep abiding faith in Him. Are they not given an abundant life? A Christian's life can be marked out by suffering--for His names sake. You can't just explain all that away with believing. If we get to know some of these other Christians--we will find amazing faith and love--how come? How come the love of many in TWI with abundance was so cold and legalistic? So hard and often cruel in the name of God? Doesn't it tell us to warn the rich--doesn't mention the poor? Was Paul not believing or tithing when he said--He was hungry-no where to live--ragged clothes--pleading for the poor SAINTS in Jerusalem? If Christians should be prosperous--what were all these guys doing wrong? With all that bible and talk of God--in my estimation TWI was not true Christianity. Wrong heart--mixed up gospel(Good News) and a warped view of Jesus. BUT--what about these other ministries? Are they much different? Wrong heart--mixed up Gospel(Good News) and warped view of Jesus. Doesn't it say? Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." -Matthew 6:19-21 The rain still falls on the just and the unjust--a Christian is not determined by his wealth or his poverty.

It boggles the mind -- it really does. A bunch of "Clergy" . . . . . "packing heat"!! No other reason but to USE them--or to PROTECT themselves or to INTIMIDATE. Now, if they were going to USE them--on who? Each other? Who would they be ptrotecting themselves from? Each other? Who were they trying to intimidate? Each other? They claimed to be CLERGY!! What. . . . ordained by the NRA? What kind of insanity runs that place? Your everyday garden variety paranoia--or a very special biblical paranoid-schizophrenic-delusional-bloated self-importance variety? I guessed they missed that "love your enemies" "Turn the other cheek" stuff. Oh yeah, that is in the gospels--doesn't count. Sorry, got a little "crazy" there. That whole Jesus love your neighbor thing. Think about it, that is really insane behavior. Carrying guns to a clergy meeting. And at 21 with NO money --No family--owing your home and tiny living to the MOG bully who held the gun to your head--well, it didn't really encourage running to the police--throw in a meek heart--a hope to serve God--and the fact that some of us checked our brains at the door of PFAL--well, you might understand why he didn't leave. I am glad to hear that some of us had the sense they were born with, but some of us were young-stupid and had a pathetic upbringing which allowed us to be so manipulated. Maybe that is why people say-"If I knew then what I know now" I sure think about that when I consider all I put up with.

How do we know they have not already? Pretty closed group--expert at cover-up. They were not above grooming young women for insanity or suicide when they refused the MOG. Telling them they didn't see what they did--devil spirits.Blah blah blah. Drugging them. They are capable of some pretty horrendous things. Wouldn't shock me if there were a few bodies buried in those Ohio woods. But, we just don't know. Would it surprize anyone--given all we know about this "Godly" organization? I think it was worse than we realize. I am just saying--wouldn't shock me if we learned someday of a cover-up. And BTW--why does a speaker need a gun at a meeting filled with "Clergy"? Ya know--when I go to church now--I am pretty confident the Pastor is NOT "Packing Heat".

When VP had a big meeting. A "Love offering" was taken. Did he ever come to your area and speak?? Well, do you know where that money from the offering went? It didn't go to feed the local WOWs. It went into big brown paper grocery bags and right on the motor coach. It left the area WITH VP--collecting as he went along. BIG BROWN GROCERY BAGS FULL OF MONEY!! Directly to the MOG. A little tempting to carry onto the MOTOR COACH--when you drive an unsafe uninsured bucket of bolts--are broke--behind on the power bill--and sick of tuna and mac and cheese. Yes Oakspear it went to the big guy himself. Bet he rolled around in it laughing his head off. WHERE DO PEOPLE THINK IT WENT??? Sheeeesh-- At the Advanced Class in 1979 VP had a little figurine on his desk--he said something to the effect of "I would hate to tell you how much it cost--you might not ABS" All those presents--Town Car --Harley--Where did the $$$ for that come from?? I don't remember voting on that. It came from the mouths of believers children and oooops no college fund. I remember not having enough to go to the frickin laundromat!! Digging change out of the couch for baby cereal. Abundant Life? Whose Abundant life?. . . . . . not mine. I guess my believing sucked.

Doojable, My husband had a loaded gun held to his head by an insane limb leader. He worked for the guy and my husband made a mistake which cost the limb leader a SMALL amount of money. He held a gun to my husbands head while he threatened him life over money. Sounds crazy, but it happened. When hubby was going to marry me--the limb leader was ticked because Hubby worked as a supervisor for him--hubby needed more money--the guy was so mean he tried to break us up instead of give a raise or lose cheap labor. He paid next to NOTHING. Not enough to live on unless we lived with a bunch of Wayfers. One of the reasons we have fond memories of DWBH is because he came for a visit and gave this limb leader a hard time. DWBH drove this guy crazy--DWBH said "Watch this I am going to .... him off" sat at his desk-put his feet on it---and smoked with no ashtray--the limb leader walked out. DWBH was one of the few people this guy really liked and would take that from. The limb leader was a rabid anti-smoker. It was a nice moment! The limb leader is dead now--he had a really lovely wife--so we never commented on any thread about him--we just lurked and kinda snorted at all the glorious things said about him. He tortured us and used a loaded gun on hubby as intimidation. Our lives improved the further we got away from him--well in some ways--we were still in TWI after-all.

Hi, Did I hear you say you had a stroke? I am so sorry for your health problems. I will pray for you and your speedy recovery. You are loved. God Bless your tender heart. Geisha

White Dove, THANKYOU for your service to these women and their pets! Not a small thing, to have some comfort knowing your animals are cared for in the midst of such trials. I am glad to hear of this program, and more than a bit enlightened by your participation. God Bless you. White Dove, our system is more than flawed. It is not what you might think it is--in fact, the way you speak of a day in court implies you don't know the depth of the problem. It is a boken clearinghouse that really does have very little to do with justice and less to do with gleaning the truth. I promise you this is the case. Talk to any public defender--if you can catch a moment when they are not over-worked-underpaid-and frustrated. Find out about the system. I never said scrap the system. We need to reform it. Advocacy is the way to do this--there are groups out here who lobby for reform. We HAVE to overturn the laws in place that cause so much needless suffering. I am talking about laws that are actually unjust and used wrongly. There are people who make decisions on the lives of others based on politics and power. People are thrown away on another's ambition. Please consider finding out about the minimum sentencing guidelines in your state---take the time to write a letter and sign an online petition. Federal guidelines have been reworked--and retroacitvely people have been released from prision. This is an important element. If you have the death penalty in your state--find out about the system in those cases. You may be shocked as to who is executed--who is not. As for TWI, Whitedove there is no day in court on this earth for VP. I know you feel strongly about this, but it is not to be. Even if it were, he had the money to purchase his justice, much like TWI did with Martindale. They settled. LCM never heard a verdict? It was enough--some kind of implied admission of guilt, but remember the court allows for this without holding his feet to the fire. Is that really justice--he walked away. I understand it was best for those bringing suit--that is NOT my point--I stand firmly with the ones bringing suit and can't imagine the courage it took to do as they did. I am supportive of whatever was best for them and their families! . . . . . But TWI kinda bought their get out of jail free card with a settlement. The ugly truth was never exposed in court. People need to be heard WD--walking wounded whose lives have been damaged. They need a voice--it lends itself to healing. A court is not the only place to be heard. A group of survivors can be a great place to vent. What is so great is that there ARE built in stop-gaps. Voices like yours who dissent with the majority. Dissent away--according to the rules. Advocating an impossible scenario where a fictious "justice" will take place and "truth" will be told--is not dissent. It isn't. Tell us what was so good about TWI--I will listen to your voice . Calling things "unjust" and "illegal" when they clearly are not just makes me roll my eyes and sigh. You are ineffectual when you do this, and if you have a point about the goodness in TWI it is not being heard. Have a conversation White Dove. We all are aware of your concern with justice. I don't think it has moved many of us. . . . it has not yet silenced us--nor will it. If you want to make us think--use your wit and participate--tell us of your good memories. We all have some of TWI--even me. Oh and verdicts are RARELY overturned--or reversed--verdicts that are given in a plea agreement--which are MOST--will NOT be reversed or overturned--there is an admission of guilt--whether real or just is up for serious debate. All depends on who you are and how much money you have. A public defender rarely wins--that is why the poor plead out. It is a broken system--which is why our prisons are over-crowded with NON VIOLENT offenders. Take care, Geisha

I too am thankful Rascal--and things like that which happened to your friends-happens every single day in this country. It is a very sick system. It truly is how much money you have and who you are. There are women in my state in jail for a 15 year minimum sentences. They are first time offenders--kids scattered to the wind-- and the jerks who use them with intimidation and fear are out running free. Judges hands are TIED by legislators who listen to deluded people who think the system works. They pass these idiotic laws that require a minimum sentence. The prosecutors can't bring to trial the real criminals--so they get the poor idiots who made a mistake. Happens all the time. Our prisons are over-crowded with non-violent offenders because of these laws. The world of black and white wide-eyed idiots who spout words like "Justice" and "courts", push and push for these laws. Makes me crazy. We live in a gray world where things have to be looked at and assessed--Our system rarely allows for this. Judges literally pass sentences they feel are wrong. They have to--it is the law. I have seen it happen. People worth saving are thrown away--15 years in a hard prison or 3 years-- No time off--how do we think that helps? Not every crime has a jury trial either. DA's say many things that are not true. So does the defense. It has little to do with truth. I really believe you are likely to get more "truth" here.

OH REALLY?? You think the legal system is this country has ANYTHING to do with real justice? Yeah right. The rich buy their justice and the poor go to jail. Even if you can manage an attorney--the DA can raise such a stink--you can't use the counsel you want. If you HONESTLY think there is such a thing as justice in our system--you just might be deluded. It is hit or miss-just like this guy got his justice 50 perverts will get off. I am so tired of hearing about a day in court--you know what a day in court means? All depends on who you are and what the system feels needs to be highlighted. It means NOTHING. You want to do something good with your time. Find out about Minimum sentencing guidelines and lobby AGAINST THEM. A day in court in this country has nothing to do with justice--you are better off on the internet--more truth is gleaned there--trust me our legal system BITES!

Now I See, Thanks-I made this!! It is too good. Chutney is a favorite here. I served it with pork and it was a hit! I made jam as well. Thanks all--I am getting the apples coming in slowly. When we planted trees years ago, I thought how cool--apples! I am over it now --just like the garden, sheep and chickens who are long gone. The apples remain. I will bake today. Dumplings I think--my last pie is nearly gone.

I love that people are interested and have looked at these issues. TZ you brought up points I often hear. Jesus never recorded a word. . . . Paul's visions. . . . . Well reasoned points I might add--this is such a deep topic--layer upon layer to be uncovered in working it out. I admire that you are objectively looking at it and really thinking it through. There are many things to agree with Karen Armstrong on and a great deal I take some issue with. Her definition of religion--is supported by her work--alas, I take exception with her definition. To transcend something means exceeding usual limits : surpassing -extending or lying beyond the limits of ordinary experience --being beyond the limits of all possible experience and knowledge --being beyond comprehension. In many religions this is true--however, Christianity is not a religion. It is a relationship. It is also a reasonable faith. Meaning, there is enough evidence to reasonably accept it as true. I am not saying there is proof positive, I am aware that their is a strong argument to be made against the Christian faith, but reasonable, intellegent people can believe with some degree of confidence. Christianity is unique from other systems of belief-- a clearer understanding of this can only help one with questions and nagging doubts. There are similarities as well---an example of this appeared on this thread--Someone mentioned that Jesus prayed to God. --there are also examples of God praying in Islam and Judaism. For a balanced perspective, along side Armstrong's book, I would suggest picking up Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ or Josh McDowell's New Evidence that Demands a Verdict. Much like Mark suggested. I would in no way discourage anyone from reading Armstrong's books. I actually encourage it. Also, I do think Christians really should take a look at historical critism of the bible. Warning, without a balance and historical understanding, this can lead some to abandon the faith completely! However, to have some confidence in your belief--it really should be looked at. A bit ironic really. Historical critism is nothing new-but it has really grown in the last three centuries. It grew from a rationalistic approach to critique. Some may say--great--makes sense. Well, yes and no, a commitment to a mindset that completely dismisses the supernatural is actually a limited scope. Think about it. This approach would eschew the resurrection. Without which, Christianity becomes a nice philosophy--and Jesus just a cool guy. Examples of those who believed this way--Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, products of . . . the rationalistic thought process of the day! Take a look at what Thomas Jefferson did to his bible--took out all miracles and any indication of the supernatural. Ended up with a really awesome man--Jesus. One whose philosophy of life was to be admired. No resurrection In fact, the bible says--without the resurrection--it is foolish to believe. (1Co 15:12-19) Another thing to really keep in mind is that often a held conviction of one century is blown from the water the next--new evidence uncovered--scholarship turned on its ear. F.C Baur--and Wellhausen are examples of this--and Baur actually posed a small threat to the faith of 19th century believers. The bible itself is such a unique book--however, the canon was not infallible--they were just men. But, its death knell has been rung so many times. God's funeral has been held, . . . . . . He remains. Some faith in the providence of God is required. That comes from a careful and honest look at the entire picture. God still lives in the hearts of those who believe. . Many who have proclaimed His death--are dust. Questions DO remain. Many have been answered, and that should give one some confidence that as evidence presents itself--we are able to answer them. Before the mod's catch me. . . . and. . . . Now that I have taken this way off topic--my speciality--I would just add this--I have many conversations here with people who are really nervous about putting down their King James bible. A real fear that they will lose the truth--words added--confusion in translation. It was an astounding product of scholarship of the day--but, we have more manuscripts now, and there is careful work in textual criticism--have some confidence in the newer versions. What does this have to do with Vp's real remnant? Nothing. Sorry--saw a book I know and comments about the bible I recognize and I really wanted to chime in. It is a very deep subject--and at some point--we make a decision as to what we are going to believe--it really is so good to carefully look at this stuff. I agree with penworks-Happy reading/learning/living,--it is a blast!!