geisha779

Chockfull, He left out huge amounts of relevant theology and although it was a rational approach....it was short-sighted and very shallow. It amazes me, that within such narrow parameters, he felt comfortable drawing any conclusions....let alone the ones he did. Where was the make-up and morality of the church.....its geographical location is absolutely relevant . . . . why were they seeking the gift of tongues? Oh my goodness.... I can point you to some far more detailed and reasonable approaches to 1 Corinthians. That was not impressive at all IMO. Read Showing the Spirit: A Theological Exposition of 1 Corinthians, 12- 14. by DA Carson. He actually agrees with you that SIT is for private prayer. It is excellent and I really think you would seriously enjoy it. :) It supports some of your theology and also challenges some.

I think a counterfeit does have spiritual significance...... which is why it bothers me so much and really is the bottom line of why I care one way or the other.

Or, in the Corinthian church for that matter....it was part Pagan and part Christian.... a kind of a hybrid from what I can tell. So, not only do you have it predating Christ and I believe that it does.....you also have it mixed right in there with Christianity in the 1st century church.

I don't think they are. . . .but, there is a huge gap of history between us and the 1st century church. Too much IMO, to know if what people do today is actually the same thing. I suspect tongues are pretty rare. They served a dual purpose, but, they were a sign for the Jews who required a sign. I don't think there is any good reason to believe tongues changed from known languages to some kind of ecstatic utterance between Acts and what the Corinthians were up to. Did you see that video of people SIT? That is just what it seemed they were doing. And there is not really a compelling case to be made that angels tongues got thrown into the mix. If tongues had changed....Paul would have mentioned that. The thing that probably hurts me the most about it all is that while VP promoted things like building ourselves up big and fat spiritually by SIT.....he took away....the way we really are strengthened and helped to endure. God's true grace and mercy. With every self centered doctrine he gave us....he robbed us of the truth about God. It is easy to walk away from teachings that VP promulgated. It is far more difficult to turn your back on a God who died for you.....and whose grace sustains you. Makes me sad....VP stole so much from so many.

Yeah, but, at least you don't sound self-righteous. I mean, it is not self-righteous to pop into the thread....insult people.....basically say it bores you but, insist you have the "right" to say your piece. In the next breath you can tell everyone how much faith you have. You know what, this doctrine really hurt me. It messed with my head....it caused me angst......and it caused me sorrow. Is it okay if I speak of it with other who were effected? You were not the only one hurt by VP.

It angers me......and this kind of knowledge is easier to walk away from than knowing and being in a relationship with the holy God of scripture. It kept us occupied with something and kept our eyes of the real mark. We never would have to perfect it. You can't operate or control the Holy Spirit. You can't improve on Him. If we were doing it....forming the words, choosing what letter to start with....trying new sounds....expanding our tongues. . . .then WE were doing it. Doesn't get much clearer than that. It was our choice to form new words, try new letters, play with it, expand and perfect a supposed gift from the HS. Thank goodness God had our hands, feet, and lips to pick up the slack.

"Beep,beep,beep, boop, boop, boop. That's not speaking in tongues." Scares me that I can so easily call that to memory. Didn't VP say that right after he said ....the devil can counterfeit anything the true God does? Wasn't there the whole spiel about how he had given his life, nearly thirty years, to studying the genuine so he could know the counterfeit. He could "spot it, just like that." Wasn't he speaking of tongues there in session 12? I could totally have it mixed up....but, I thought he said it could, at least be faked. He did it. 1 Corinthians is about separating the genuine from the counterfeit. It wasn't pretty when I finally saw that in those verses. I saw myself and I saw TWI and then I saw what a genuine believer should look like. It actually was a little earth shattering. Happy days.

I think this is a great question! Really, I do. :) My question back would be, how would we know if he was praying for someone? How would he even know? Unless. . . . there was someone there to interpret. Which is exactly what they were supposed to do in an assembly to build up the body. So, no, I really don't think it would edify the body or Chockfull for that matter. Just my opinion....nothing more. I have to add that I am more than happy to respectfully disagree with Chockfull and seek after love and not contention. God has fully equipped us to pray for each other with our understanding. Jesus prayed for specific people. John 17 in the High Priestly prayer of Jesus....He prays for His disciples....He prays for those who would believe.....He prays for what He will go through....He prays for His Glory in a sense. Jesus was the one who gave us the example of how prayer should be. Our Father who Art in Heaven. They asked Him how to pray and He answered directly. We have examples of corporate prayer in scripture and a precious and intimate look into the Lord's most private prayers in the garden. So much of what VP taught really doesn't fit when you start breaking it down. All believers are commanded to be filled with the HS, but not all believers SIT. In our twigs the "manifestations" were nothing more than what God has already given us with scripture. At times, it was a whole lot less. It was nothing more than what we should have already had built up in our hearts. Another question might be ....what actually is more edifying....having someone pray for you with words you don't understand and never will unless someone interprets or having someone pray from their heart, words to the Lord, that not only intercede for you, but, minister love that you can comprehend?

I guess it was doctrinal but, I don't want to be the reason it is moved. :) It also was rather ironic.....I was making a point. Chockfull, I guess I could explain to you that it is as He the spirit wills.....that the bible does actually say that not everyone has the same gift. If everyone was an eye where is the hearing. Maybe consider it is not as we learned TWI and you elsewhere...or not, but I guess you missed the real problem that can arise when we say our gifts are for our own private edification. It doesn't work that way. It vaunts you and it lowers someone else. It cheapens the gift and the giver. I am SURE that is not your intention, but it all goes back to you and your special gift for your private use. Do you doubt that I know I don't have tongues? If so, then why do you take umbrage that someone doubts you do? Go ahead and covet is hardly the attitude that someone who has a gift of the HS would display. That gift is actually for my edification if indeed you do have it. Anyway. I was being ironic. It is the same point Paul was trying to make. Do you see what was going on in Corinth......me, mine....special...everyone wanted it and what ended up happening was people were counterfeiting, faking, competing and comparing. The genuine was mixed with the fake and the whole point was lost. That is why Paul said the greater thing to covet is....love. So, let's do that! Take care.

Some doctrine is bound to come up.... Last time....and I don't really think this is so very doctrinal.... Chockfull, I didn't use the quote feature and for that I do apologize.....but, did I read you correctly? You believe the miracle of people understanding the tongues was just one time for Pentecost and then maybe those few other meetings you heard about? Actually, I do believe praying in tongues is for the congregation....with interpretation. I just don't believe what we were doing in TWI was genuine. I do believe the scriptures, I just read them a bit differently now. How something is first related in scripture often helps us determine the meaning, so I think how tongues were originally described is significant. Why did God change it? Why did He toss in angels tongues and up the anti? Why do you get the gift of tongues and I don't. If it is so significant to a genuine prayer life, it sounds like I should be coveting tongues. Why do I get a serving gift and not one needed for my private prayer life! That seems a pretty big gap there. Seriously, you have been speaking to the importance of tongues in your private prayer life....your secret language with God....some kind of pipeline it sounds like. If it is so significant to private prayer then why is it that many Christians who do not have the gifts of tongues, but pray with their understanding, have the most rich and amazing prayer lives and abilities? Gifts are given for the edification of the body....we don't get gifts for our own private use. Sometimes I wish we did. . . . but that is not how it works. Don't even bother trying to tell me that every born-again believer can SIT. That is not what Paul means. It just isn't. If I believed that SIT was for private prayer life and I DO know I don't have that gift....reading your posts about how privately important it is between you and God, well, it would start to make me feel pretty bad. Like I was somehow lacking. It would make me think God cares more about you then me. I got a serving gift. I have no choice but to use it for the edification of others. I want special prayer power....someone else can give for awhile.(Not really, I am thankful for my gift).

I should probably mention that there are some pretty compelling alternate views of the verses we used in TWI to say that tongues was for our private prayer life. . . including 1 Corinthians 14: 4-7. Some very reasonable evidence in context as well, so, I don't actually believe tongues is for private prayer. Here is a simple overview of why I believe this....if anyone cares. :) http://www.gotquesti...in-tongues.html That being said....we can always agree to disagree. But, I do think the idea is unbiblical and another thing we were sold on so we would believe we really were manifesting the power of God and "special". Just my opinion. But, I don't have the gift of tongues so doesn't God want me to have a good prayer life too? Do I get to be built up? I am still a little ticked I missed out on so much greater true faith building theology because I fell into lies. The other thing that I wondered about was the idea that everyone would believe if we could prove God scientifically. I don't think so. Many people who were calling for Jesus to be executed and a criminal to be released were the same people following Him around and who saw the miracles He did. It took Jesus blinding Paul and smacking Him down to get him to actually see. Paul was zealous for God. It takes God to grant us faith. Believing there is a God is different than faith, I know.....and devils believe. Still, I don't think everyone would believe.

Just a little note....I don't know if it is relevant to the new direction the topic is taking and I am taking great care not to get all up in anyone's face doctrinally. It is actually a little difficult not to unleash on Johniam's logic....but there you have it. Restraint. However, Jesus did predict tongues as a sign of those who were His followers. As Jesus predicted, tongues did follow as a sign. It is just that they were real known languages....new to the Apostles and a sign for those who didn't believe the gospel. The result of those tongues was enough that it persuaded people. Those who were already His followers didn't need a sign. Asking for proof....just IMO....doesn't seem all that out there....especially if it is the purpose....for a sign to those who don't believe. I guess, I just don't see where tongues would be anything other than a real language. I don't see where tongues only serve God's followers. Seems the opposite actually. We don't need a sign. Jesus always prayed in a known language as did everyone else. I don't think some new need arrived that made tongues needful for prayer. Not everyone has the gift of tongues.

I went back and looked and why....yes you did! Feels good doesn't it? To question I mean. Not only does it feel good, but it opens up a whole new world of theology....a BETTER way of understanding God and also a way to understand what we were swept up in. Actually, I can remember sitting in the dinning room reading scripture with my PFAL decoder ring and rose colored TWI glasses on thinking to myself....I could be speaking in the tongues of angels. I just thought I was so special. I was special alright. Thanks for this thread and the chance to look at these things again. Although I stopped SIT by way of VP sometime ago...........it is good to challenge these practices and see if they really do hold up under scrutiny.

There is no such thing as "the tongues of Angels". Anywhere angels speak in scripture it is a known language......Paul is using a literary device....not sure what you would call it, but he is turning their terminology back on them and he is exaggerating to make his point. I don't think it was ever meant literally. No place are the angels words, when spoken in heaven, translated for us, but this does occur with other phrases that appear like Eli Eli or the handwriting on the wall. Mene Mene Tekel Upsharin. I am sure there are more but, those come to mind. At no time are angels words unintelligible. DA Carson does a great piece on the tongues of angels. I really don't think Paul ever meant we were speaking the language of angels. Also....while I am thinking of it. Earthly languages were originally given on the day of Pentecost, so for the Corinthians to actually be speaking the tongues of Angels it means the gift changed and the bar was raised. Oh, sorry, you didn't ask me!!

The Jews required a sign....tongues were a great evangelistic tool. With genuine tongues people heard and understood the gospel message.....it was confirmed by a sign, and the Apostles were able to communicate this message to a larger group of people in other languages....and they didn't have to learn them first. And if you take a closer look....as in the case of Cornelius it was actually used as a sign or confirmation. Remember the Jews required a sign. When new groups were added to the church tongues were a confirmatory sign, but tongues were languages people understood. If there wasn't someone who understood they needed a (ta da) interpreter. Also a gift. It is when you start getting into what was going on in Corinth it goes all wonky. They were trying to out do each other,,,,everyone sought tongues and they came from a heritage with Pagan temples and ecstatic utterances. It was a mess. There was the genuine mixed in with the counterfeit and when Paul is speaking to them he is sorting out their gross error. It sounds as if some of them were even calling Jesus accursed. My take anyway.

The part of the brain which is active when we speak a language like English wasn't involved when SIT. If it is a language that we supposedly form and use at our will....wouldn't it be active? Those people sounded like they were stuttering. It didn't sound like language it sounded just like gibberish.. . . some of them were just making noises. The Pastor admitted as much. I thought the study kind of refuted at least VP's take on SIT. Oh and now I remember the explanation for why it may be an unrecognizable language other than the angel thing. It was that it could be any ancient language once spoken anywhere on earth. Anyone else remember that? That is convenient.

No? You really kind of are if you demand Raf prove his point....funny how that works. How about any reasonable standard? I have to wonder, as I have inadvertently strung two words together that Freud once used in some esoteric essay and I am somehow working for the wrong side. What standard did you use in evaluating my post to come up with that gem? Just an observation here, but it appears you don't really hold yourself or your random rambling thoughts to any standard. How about it Johniam....did you pay for PFAL.....fork over money to learn to operate the Holy Spirit? How were you and I any different than Simon in Acts? We paid cash to receive the so-called power of God. We did it with tongues, we did it with Interpretation and with prophecy.....and if you are an Advanced class grad as I am, you did with the rest of what VP termed manifestation of the HS. That is just so offensive. To me now and always to God whose gifts are freely given as He wills. Simon was actually refused, so, he went on to start his own special school of magic. Much like VP. It was a scam. If you don't want to listen to the reasoning on this thread....check out the scriptures and some church history. We followed the guy who offered to sell us the magic. The problem may be that you are still so vested in that gnostic flavored gospel you can't really see the difference. It is just a modern day repeat of what happened in the first church. Although, Simon had a much larger following and a greater impact on the church. He was a real pain in their backsides. We took a serious wrong turn.

Although I think what we did in TWI was a counterfeit and genuine tongues are probably pretty rare.....this study is kind of interesting. Amazing the amount of people who are willing to SIT on You Tube! I even found an old TruthorTradition video on the subject. <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/3wwmEjkpI0c" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

Well, I don't think you are the bad guy Raf....it is just a challenging topic for some. I was trying to remember what I thought when I first SIT via TWI. I did it before the class while reading RTHST. I remember sitting there breathing in and out and just let it rip. My best friend did it before the class too. It was actually a little anticlimactic. They wouldn't let us "manifest" in twig until we had completed the intermediate class. . . . maybe? I am pretty sure, but we took it right away. I do remember, I simply believed everything I read and just did it. With hindsight....I think I was just extremely gullible and susceptible to suggestion. I was barely 19 and surrounded and a bit suffocated by people who seemed so very vested in me SIT. I didn't want to let them down and I didn't really understand the scriptural references so I was very intimidated by others knowledge. It was the perfect storm. I got caught in a cult. Absolutely. . . . ,interpretation and prophecy would run through my head before being called on. It was a little nerve wracking to be put on the spot like that. I can remember making sure the tongues and message were of equal length. Yeah....gotta be real here....I totally faked that stuff. The tongues....I haven't really a clue what that was, but it wasn't a real language and nobody I ever ran into recognized it. It was kinda just gibberish.

I do have to wonder .... how I missed the most obvious of things like. . . . we were seeking after signs, paying money for the power of the HS, and coveting this particular gift as my due or right......maybe, by not reading what is clearly written as correction and just adopting it as doctrine. We didn't just have a little error....VP full on mangled those sections of scripture. It was gross error. And.....if someone needs tongues as proof of the new birth.....they are really displaying the opposite of genuine faith. It was a sign so we could know that we know....well, if we needed that sign to really know.... then we never really truly placed our faith in Him. Our faith was in that so-called proof. Really diabolical.

That is just evil genius.

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You really are a piece of work. What side would that be.....the side of SATAN? Ooooh cue scary music. Only ex-way can play that card with a straight face. And why am I batting for the wrong team again? Because I don't buy into TWI's mass delusion that we are manifesting at our will the power of the Almighty by babbling incoherently and then spitting out some lame and yes practiced, indoctrinated, perfunctory, or coerced ....supposed exhortation. Talk about deluded. I don't need Freud to tell me anything....I can simply pick up a bible and read about the genuine to see we were MILES away from anything close to what scripture describes. Shame you can't say the same. You made my day though. Really....this reminds how frickin lucky I am that I escaped with a few brain cells intact.

Pinned at the top of the doctrinal forum we are asked to avoid costly long copied posts. Some of the newer posters down here have been making extremely lengthy posts. I would like to point out that the doctrinal forum is for discussion, not recruitment and not lecturing. It is a place where people can have a conversation with each other and/or friendly debate about doctrinal issues. Posts that are as lengthy as some of them have been more recently, are not condusive to conversation and take up a lot of bandwidth. In addition, if you are posting information that is taken from another website, you are potentially infriging on a copyright. Please simply post a link and a small sampling of what can be found on the website instead of cutting and pasting the entire thing. It is thoughtless to go against a clearly defined parameter. Posts like this cost someone here money. Post a link and if people are interested they can follow it. Let's not abuse others generosity and goodwill by going against what is clearly asked of us. It is not very nice.