geisha779

And while we are at it. What about those who stood up and actually stopped bearing it beautifully??? What was the response to them?? To be held under house arrest with guns and dogs on their children, their personal items held ransom?? We are to be on our guard. . . . not carried away. . . . not bear them beautifully. . . snatch others from the fire.. . . but not get singed in the process. . . or even having the smell of smoke on us. . . It is up to God to grant repentance. . . . so that they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil . . . having been held captive by him to do his(the devils) will. Guns and dogs?? Come on! What are we actually talking about here? Brothers in Christ?? On what PLANET? If God does not forgive them and reserves a "special" place for them. . . . are we to forgive them without change in what they do and teach?? . . . . and know better than God? Why does He even warn us about them? It might be difficult to reconcile who they really are and what we were involved in--especially when we still adhere to many of their doctrines and teachings. I submit it is fairly clear. They are the ones the bible speaks of. . . ungodly. . . morally perverted. . . deny Christ. . . defile the flesh. . . rebellious. . . ignorant. . . self seeking. . . arrogant speakers. . . cause division. . . worldly minded. . . without the spirit. . . savage wolves. . . they draw away. . . lovers of self. . . . lovers of money. . . . boastful. . . without self-control. . . . conceited. . . . lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God. It is possible to pray for them. . . to want them to change. . . but TWI STILL teaches the same damning heresies. The same Christ denying doctrine. The same garbage that leads people AWAY from God. VP died in it. His kids are trying to resurrect it. . . . TWI is stilled mired in it up to their ears. Always learning but never able to come to a recognition of THE truth. Who is the truth?? Jumping from one cult or false teaching to another. . . without ever coming to Jesus. . . There are perilous false teachings that can't save, but do damn. . . . that is what TWI and those who spew this filth do. . . . lead people astray. God does not look on that lightly. . . neither do I nor should any of us. These people used the grace of God to justify evil. . . they destroyed people to pursue pleasure. . . they abused to gain money. . . they raped and defiled . . . bad enough on its own. . . they did it in a Holy God's name. Oh my goodness. . . just consider it. . .

Oenophile, I would never pass judgement on one wrestling with addiction or such issues as you have described. First off, sin is God's domain, and I believe He looks on and knows the heart. Second, I have a beam in my own eye that needs plucking. I was speaking of the people in TWI who continued to manipulate, rape and abuse in God's name. A very specific set of people. Again, who are these people? Are they my brothers? That is why I said we would probably disagree on who they really are. The bible is so clear on who they are. At least to me. I am not going to condone that behavior or wink at it. Not if I truly believe they lead people away from God. Not if I truly believe they are the false believers the bible speaks of so pointedly. Ravenous wolves. Jesus called them a brood of Vipers. . . told them their end was hell. Paul said their end is destruction. . . . We are not to bear this beautifully. . . Peter spoke of them. . . John spoke of them. . . .Jude spoke of them. . . Their sins revealed their hearts. Turning the grace of God into licentiousness. . . . hidden reefs in your love feast. Clouds without water. . . trees without fruit. . . doubly dead. . . . uprooted. . . wild waves of the sea. . . casting up their own shame like foam. . . wandering stars. . . . unreasoning animals. . . (Not my words) We are not to be ignorant. If you stumbled across VP panting away on some poor drugged girl who TRUSTED him as a MOG. Would you pass by and say "Maybe you had a bad childhood?" "I forgive you"? What is the difference in forgiving them now? There is NO repentance --- NO change of heart. LCM saw women he wanted. . . . He destroyed marriages to get them. If he repented, changed, and did NOT continue in that behavior. I would gladly forgive him. No questions asked. Repentance means turning from sin--changing your mind resulting in a change of action or behavior! Seems to me it would take some serious moral relativity to sweep this stuff away with "our" idea of forgivness. There is Judgement reserved for them. . . not forgivness. . . Not God winking and saying "No problem". I put it in God's hands. . . . but, I don't wink at it either.

Excathedra, I am GLAD you brought this up. The truth is, many of us may have not even met true ministers. But, seems to me they would have to be servants of God --- humble--wanting to bring glory to God. "And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant..." I think maybe we ex-way have seen many people jockey for "Leadership" positions instead of striving to be ministers. Not all of them. . . a few good people spring to mind. . . but, many just pushed us down to raise themselves up within the way structure. Now, does that actually raise one up or just make them look taller(for a time) standing on the backs of those knocked down? When anyone does that, TWI or not--it hurts those being stepped on. It should make you angry . . . it is wrong. It makes me angry and often sad . . . because of these men. . . God takes the hit. There are men all throughout Christianity who have come in and scattered the flock. They wreak havoc on the people. Hurt them. Jesus warned. . . Paul was worried. . . and it does happen. Then what happens? God is spoken of badly. . . not glorified. True ministers seek to glorify God, they guard the flock against these wolves. They are out there--humble and serving. We are to love our neighbor as ourselves. . . that keeps us pretty busy ministering good things to people, but there is a calling for ministers. I wouldn't want that calling. . . I am ill prepared for it. . . the responsibility is awesome. That is why people TRAIN for the ministry. Just look at what happens when people are asleep on the job. . . wolves sneak in. . . I hope your friend knows it is not God who betrayed her. . . or any of us for that matter. . . it was men wearing furry costumes. :) You have valid reasons for being p'd off! People get hurt. . . we get enough hurt without it coming from those claiming to serve God. Even so. . . . God is still good!!

We have made this alot now, it is good. Chef, I have a sauce related question. . . have you ever heard of cloves and sugar in Spag sauce? I make it from scratch--I mean tomatoes--not the can--and I use 8 cloves and a cup of sugar. IT is one of the few things I cook well. It makes it sooo good. Ever tried it? Really curious if it is a common thing or a passed down family thing. Not cloves of garlic. . . .cloves. I do this with jar stuff do doctor it as well???

Linda, Thanks, I never heard of that store though. Just an FYI for anyone interested. Wilton, which has wonderful theme pans--and retires them(?) I guess, can be found on ebay. I sometimes find them at auctions. Very fun. I want to make Kimberly's fondant, but I will check out a few craft stores for Wilton. I don't use it too often. I may start practicing again. Thanks for thinking of me! :) In GB you can buy rolled icing in the grocery store. It is awesome stuff--easy to work with. I miss it. Enjoy the cookies Linda---it is a nice recipe. Geisha

Now that is more like it Mstar!! I will listen to both all the way through--more than once. Lovely. I get to hear music like the second video all the time. My kid and his friends sit and play like that. . . enough to make you weep. Gotta tell you. . . my son's name is Ian. Why do you think? I wanted Tristan--no said Hubby "Too much like a girls name". . . I wanted Colin, he said "Do you want him beaten on the playground?" I wanted Grahm he said "Like the cracker?" I said "Ian?" He said "Like Ian Anderson?" "Yeah that is a good solid name!!" Ian it is!

Last one. . .Tis the season! Merry Christmas. . . .

Here is one I am still mulling over. . . ?? Is it me or does this seem too much?

Mstar, Who knew Stephen Colbert could sing? :) Willie nearly clean shaven? I don't know about that. . . . This one has been stuck in my head for a few days. Heard it somewhere. . . memories. . .

A Christmas song. . . kinda

Linda, You are right ---forgiving someone a wrong they have committed you--is your choice, and good for you for doing so. . . .you know your heart. I think it is lovely BTW. You and I probably have very differing views on who these people are who did these things. . . . and therein lies some of the issue. That is another topic entirely. God requires repentance in His forgiveness of sins. There is a turning away from that behavior. Jesus said . . . Go and sin no more. Habitual sin is a different animal. It reveals the heart. I can forgive someone the wrongs they have committed against others. So can you. However, if there is no repentance or change. . . no recognition of evil. . . isn't that condoning rather than forgiveness? Sounds alot like moral relativity to me. My post was in no way a reflection on anything you happened to say BTW. :)

Cheranne, You said weird. . . . right? I took a writing course once. . . nothing pleased this Prof--a published poet. Frustrated, I wrote a sarcastic poem--took me a five minutes. This one he LOVED! Go figure?? It was a joke. I Killed My Neighbors Dog with Anti-freeze Runny eyes peering from matted fur. Slobbering mouth, howling at sounds beyond the human ear a concophony of echoes down the block Noise, worse than a burn on the tip of my tongue. Blue haired woman, deaf to the nightly chorus ignored his plea. The yellow, green, neon called out to me. A tempting crystal rainbow glimmering on the asphalt. When he eagerly lapped Made his end complete. That is my contribution. I never was much for poetry, but I do love Shelley. Whoever posted that. . . Thanks!

RG, I would be remiss if I did not tell you how moved and inspired I am by your passion and zeal for God. It does not go unappreciated. He never said it would be easy, but that He would be with us. It is evident He is with you and you with Him I love that you are so well versed in scripture, but even more---you exhibit the love you have for God so eloquently! Your heart is a blessing! Geisha

Now this is not a dis cman, but an observation. . . .the above post is so cryptic it is not really something I can decipher. What does that mean? Not that it really matters. You have your theology and don't really seem interested in mine which I share in large part with RG. BTW I too wonder. . . who is Magi?? Here is what I think. . . . God is so wonderful. . . so majestic. . . eternal. . . just Glorious and overflowing with perfection. Really beyond my vocabulary. It is a fallen world. Look around you--man and God are at enmity. We seek our own way. But, the only way we are reconciled to God is by His Son Jesus Christ. It is repentance and faith in Jesus. . . .His finished work on the Cross. If we want . . . we can ask Him for true saving faith. He welcomes all. But, by no other name are we saved. People can reject Him, deny Him, malign Him, revile Him, mock Him, it never changes who He is or that He is. He showed us His love once and for all by sending His Son to die in our place. That is how He loved the world. It is enough. It is big enough to save us all if we will but believe on Him. Jesus is the express image of God. . . the bible reveals Him. . . He is how God has communicated Himself to us. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. I won't really say any more than that. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” 35 “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Hi cman; The word--Logos--is a title for Jesus--not us. God is complete and satisfied in Himself--He doesn't need anything to complete Him. He is filled and overflowing within Himself. We, on the otherhand, are complete in Him. We look for something outside of us to make us happy. The one true thing that satisfies us is God. God can take joy in us--when we walk in truth. . . Jesus said "I have spoken these things to you so that my joy may be in you and your joy may be complete." But, God's existence, His happiness, His glory, His wisdom, knowledge, perfection, in no way depend on us. We are the created. His overflowing love is shared with us--so that we may be filled --that in turn brings praise and honor and glory to Him--We can do nothing but praise when we truly see Him- We find our delight in God--not the other way around. We have this because God is good. Isaiah 48:11 11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another. Ephesians 1 6He predestined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace. 12We who first hoped in Christ have been predestined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. 14The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory. 2 Thessalonians 1:10 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. Romans 11:36 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Hi Excathedra :) There are some wonderful, humble ministers and there are idiots who claim to be ministers. At least we have some experience in spotting them a mile away. Not sure how much of a bonus THAT is! Once bitten right? I usually watch where the money goes, a parrot can quote scripture.

You are right here. . . God loves ideas and thinking. He commands us to love Him with all our heart, soul, MIND, and strength. Changing your mind is a way of life. . . If it was perfect you would not need to change it. I didn't realize any responsive posts here were about you or your motives? I didn't realize any were about you being wrong. . . I didn't realize it was about you at all.

I'm sorry what are we forgiving? Serial adultery, rape, sexual abuse, twisting scripture, teaching false doctrines, lying, stealing, using money entrusted for God--for lust and pleasure, vanity, pride, the break-up of families, marriages, manipulation, using the most vile language while teaching about a Holy God. . . . the list is endless. Oh I forgot. . . .all IN the NAME of a Holy God What kind of moral relativity forgives this behavior with no repentance and change. Isn't this actually what God condemns?? Forgive, knock yourself out with it. It is still evil behavior--and yes--I am making a judgement call here. I feel like I am on pretty solid ground.

Contrary to our self-centered thinking cman we are not central to God . . . He is. I am going to come at this love thing in another way here. Let's see if we can agree on any of this. What does God's loving us do? I am of the mind that it GLORIFIESS Him. That is the real purpose. Romans 15:8-9 8 For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers, 9and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written, "THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES, AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME." Ephesians 4: 1Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. Could be the goal of God's love is that we PRAISE him? Psalm 86 12 I give thanks to you, O Lord my God, with my whole heart, and I will glorify your name forever. 13 For great is your steadfast love toward me; you have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol. Now, that might sound like God is self-centered right? If that is someone's response to those verses or what I am TRYING to convey. . . I would just implore you to stop and THINK for a moment about who God is. . . His love is not about how great we are?? That God NEEDS man. . .No, the bible tells us what we are. . . next to God we KNOW what we are. . . Don't ever let our own moral indifference lead us to believe that God is morally indifferent! His love pulls us from our own self-centered love into loving and glorifying HIM. Why? He is WORTHY. . . HE is what satisfies. . . HE is what we inwardly LONG for. . .HE is PERFECT and GLORIOUS and GREAT beyond comprehension. He is giving us the BEST possible thing to enjoy forever. . . Himself. That is love. God will see to it that He is Glorified. . . as Christians it is our PURPOSE!!! What we are called to. The rocks will cry out for goodness sake. . . . Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. The cross is the ultimate expression of divine love. God is just and sin must be punished. We can't forget that about God. . . HE cannot abide sin. . . He is HOLY and He is JUST! He did the unthinkable. . . He put His own Son to death for us. It was His will. Jesus bore the punishment you and I deserve. That has to show us that God cannot forever abide sin and always wink it away. HE vindicated His justice while showing us His mercy. Staggering!! He punished OUR sin in Christ for those who BELIEVE. But, you have to look at this too. It served to display His RIGHTEOUSNESS. HIS HIS HIS. . . . He was exalted at the cross. His glory and Mercy were on display. HIS Justice--HIM. The cross is NOT about us. The aim and result GLORIFIES GOD!! Because of it---WE can partake in glorifying God. . . WE can know that satifaction that comes from exalting and loving Him. That is the real love of God in Christ. Do you get it? That is how He showed His love. By allowing us to love Him. . . to know Him. . . to be satisfied in Him through Jesus. It is not about us and our own ideas of love or what we think is right. God is glorified--we are satisfied!!

Well, okay. . . I guess. But, unless you speak of Jesus and Him crucified then it is your thoughts and your visions.

My kid has lot's of famous friends. . . we used to frame pictures of him with them. He decided to stop but we have some great pictures. We know Noel "Paul" Stookey from Peter, Paul, and Mary. He got a hold of my son a few weeks ago. He and my husband prayed together on 9/11. We have met Peter and Mary through Paul. I used to do book signings. I got to meet some interesting authors and hand them the books to sign. The nicest most down to earth was "Mankind" the wrestler. He had his daughter with him and she colored while he signed. The rudest was also a wrestler "China"--won't even go there. Just unpleasant. I was the cool mom for a bit because my son and his friends were into wrestling and I brought them and they got to meet those two. Our company also did TLC's album party, but I didn't get to meet them. My hubby met the President of South Africa Thabo Mbeki. Had his picture taken with him and we never got the copy.

cman I have read every verse, word, and question posed on this thread. . . . :) Can God so love the world--yet have conditions in place for salvation? Jesus did die for all of us. Not all of us accept Him. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son . . . that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. God has shown us His love once and for all time through Jesus. That is the love of God. That is it. HE is the exact representation of God. . . if you reject Him you are rejecting God. There is no more sacrifice. . . . no more talk. . . no last minute save some other way. . . He is it. . . He is enough. People belong to the world or they belong to God. God calls all men to Himself through Jesus. Not through Allah or through Buddha or through our own religion. Not all answer Him. Do you realize that Jesus prayed for those who belong to Him? Not the world, but His own? Those of us who belong to Him. John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. He loves His own to a particular perfecting end. To the fullest degree. Eis telios John 13 1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. Having loved His own. We can't assign our own understanding of love to God. If there are conditions to salvation. . . that doesn't mean God doesn't "not" love. He showed us that love--for ALL--it is here--Jesus is how God showed the world His love. If we reject Him. . . we are rejecting God's love. There is NO other way to accept God's love than through Jesus. People are free to believe whatever they wish. However, that does not mean they will all be saved. The bible is full of people who rejected Jesus. The world is full of people who reject Jesus. God loves them. . .He has shown them HE loves them. Through Jesus Christ!! It is MORE than good enough and big enough to cover us all. . . IF we will believe we will be saved. Today if you hear His voice do NOT harden your hearts.

Kimberly You have made me quite happy here!!! I have to ask. . . what kind of sugar? Powdered or granulated? I will print this out. Buttercream frosting is perfect under fondant. No more messy marshmallows!! :)

I did forget to add this. Jesus sacrifice is big enough to cover the sins of the entire world. No doubt about it at ALL. That doesn't mean that each person is forgiven. . . it is by faith we are saved. When God looks upon those who believe on His son. . . they are forgiven. . . Jesus suffered His wrath(Yes God has wrath)---His sacrfice is amazing--too awesome to put into words. . . . the love. . . it is life altering. But, there is only one way to God--through Jesus Christ. The price was paid. . . we have to accept Him to be reconciled.

Kimberly, I am curious. . . do you consider yourself a Christian? Follower of Christ? I read an exchange you had with another poster Jen-o and I thought you said you never ever called yourself a Christian? Could you clarify this for me please? :) I think that what cman is saying is that salvation is not a choice. . . . therefore all will be saved. He is speaking about the doctrine of election. If you look at the 5 points of Calvinism. . . he can make a case. I disagree that all will be saved. . . because of the contrary scriptures, the Holiness of God and the magnitude of the sacrfice. I do understand why he says what he does though. It is Christian Universalism. . . . a compelling case can be made, but it has been argued and fairly debunked. No, God is not some evil dude waiting to bonk you on the head if you do something wrong. I don't believe anyone has said so. . . The point RG and I are trying to make is that God is Holy. What makes it any less scary that God killed the son's of Aaron? Because they were not His sons? He created them? They were His priests. Moses told Aaron to not even mourn his own sons. Why is that okay? Because God was just in His actions. . . .no one could speak against it. He was right. Don't you think Aaron loved his sons? Psalm 119:75 75: I know, O Jehovah, that thy judgments are righteous, And that in faithfulness thou hast afflicted me. Psalm 115:3 3 But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever he pleased. Deuteronomy 32:39 39 See now that I, even I, am he, And there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; And there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Hebrews 12: 5 . . . and ye have forgotten the exhortation which reasoneth with you as with sons, My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when thou art reproved of him; 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye are without chastening, whereof all have been made partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had the fathers of our flesh to chasten us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed good to them; but he for our profit, that we may be partakers of his holiness. 11 All chastening seemeth for the present to be not joyous but grievous; yet afterward it yieldeth peaceable fruit unto them that have been exercised thereby, even the fruit of righteousness. We are children of God Kimberly . . . when we are reconciled to God through the blood of Christ by faith in Him. As children we are to love our father and His ways. Partakers of His holiness. . . Not carve out our own ways. Job 40:2 2 Shall he that cavilleth(fault finder) contend with the Almighty? He that argueth with God, let him answer it. Life is not about us or our troubles, or where we are in our struggles. What issues we wrestle with. . . As a Christian--it is about God. . . . awesome and wonderful God. He does meet you where you are and does love you with a pure intense love, no doubt. He does come for the broken and weary. Then He transforms us. Shows Himself to us in His glory. It is no longer about me. . . how could it possibly be so when I have seen a glimpse of the glory of God? What makes that reconciliation possible? How do we even see that we need reconciliation with a God we are enemies with? It is the goodness of God that leads to repentance. How can we recognize that good when our hearts are set against it? Don't we first have to hear of the Holiness of God to know that we are sinners? I'm okay--your okay? Our own ways right in our sight. Confronted with true "Rightness" we have something to gauge our own sinful nature against. The Holiness of God should do it. That goodness and pureness that RG spoke of. People don't want to look at it. . . . let's reason it away. There is no God. Or if there is--He is love so I am covered because God would never destroy anyone. We will all be saved. If there is a hell then God is mean. . . No, God is just. Again. . . what does it mean that God is Holy and just and who can speak against what He does. . . He is Right or Righteous. Jesus was a man of sorrows. Isaiah tells us this. 1 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed? 2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not. He was betrayed by one of His own. . . rejected, grieved, murdered. People turned away from Him. . . . Many stll hide their faces from Him. Still reject Him. Many do NOT esteem Him. He wept for the one's who rejected Him. He knew what it meant. He had called Israel. . . loved them. . . chose them. . . was patience with them. . . protected them. . . fed them. . . guided them. He was their God. When He came and dwelt among them. . . they killed Him. The Pharisee's could not see who He was--right there in front of their faces. . . THEY were right in their own sight. They wanted to be rid of Him because He posed a threat to their way. It is no different today. There are those who accept Him and those who reject Him. Some devise their own way to heaven. . . circumventing the only real Way. IT all starts with a recognition of who God is. . . He is Holy.