geisha779

Sorry about the subtitles, but this is the best version. Beyonce----LISTEN What a Wonderful World

Aerosmith - I Don't Wanna Miss a Thing Jaded Crying

I am pretty sure it goes to the smaller market teams. Something to do with exclusivity rights. . . meaning they can't move to higher market areas. The better revenue areas are "Promised". It is SUPPOSE to be a deterrent to one big market team signing all the talent. HA! I think it goes by team payroll as to who gets the money. We probably won't see any of it, but it would be sweet in a way.

Wow, big bill coming due for the Yanks. . . from RiverAve.blues This year’s damage: $26.9M. That’s up from $23.9M last year, and it’s the most they’ve owed since 2005. It also brings their total luxury tax payout to $148.3M in the six seasons it’s existed. The only other team over the $162M threshold this year are the Tigers, who owe just $1.3M. Checks are due January 31st.

Dr WearWord, Don't know why you put up Stonehenge to illustrate your point that God is zero. Are we talking about the God of the bible or something else that is zero?? As an aside, before they roped off Stonehenge. . . I used to tag along with some "older" kids and hang out at Stonehenge. It was desolate. . . chilly. . . dusk. . . and we were alone there. Very cool. You could sit on the rocks . . . climb around. . . it was fun. Got found out though. . . ended that. I was only in that area of GB a few months. Never met God there.

I saw this and immediatley broke it down to a place I was comfortable with, so yeah that can work. Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.

hiway, That perspective seems to originate from within. . . you spend THAT kind of money and don't see results. . . well, like mstar reminded me. . . banging your head against a wall. It does just grate the nerves though. . . . has the air of entitlement. You are right Tom Strange the Twins are always fun to keep an eye on. . . and yes that would be the money grubbing Yankees,. . . . . cute very cute!

God is Love--your turn :)

I have pulled out my "Yankee Haters" hat and wore it today. I . . . I. . . . I don't know what to say. . . or I can't and still be in keeping with the spirit of this thread. Those absolute money grubbing--title buying bastards. Okay, no more. . . I am sorry if I offended anyone especially you hiway--truly, but man. . .

From one of our favorite movies. . . A Mighty Wind. . . Christopher Guest is a genius IMHO.

Certainly didn't mean to make you sick. Glad you have risen above whatever. . . I hardly post on the Way threads anymore. . . . but this one irked me a bit. If someone is going to admonish to do something using Jesus as a reason and it somehow justifys the absolute cruelty of TWI and the pain and destruction it caused. I might just take exception. Then again, I might not . . . . You make a powerful point. . . . you don't CARE what the bible thinks. . . Yet somehow, you have a pretty darn good moral compass. Ask any atheist or pagan or agnostic . . . they will have a handle on it. . . . ought to make a Christian pay attention.

Dr. WearWord, I love this verse. . . . The heavens declare the glory of God,and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. I don't think that God seems silent. . . He has declared Himself to us through His creation. The pictures that you posted on this thread. . . the heavens declare the glory of God. Do you really believe that such an awe inspiring magnificent display is silence? If God is outside His creation and the universe is expanding. . . how infinite He is. . . .What's more. . . you and I live in a time where we get to see so much of the expanse. . . and yet there is more and more. . . beauty upon beauty declaring the glory of God. It is breathtaking. But, not only has He revealed His Glory in the heavens. . . . He has given us an account of Himself and His plan. The scriptures. Most importantly, He has revealed Himself through His Son. Through Jesus. . . That is where you find God. . . and He is not silent concerning Himself. I do believe though that God hides His face from us from time to time. . . if you know His face to begin with. . if you have that intimate relationship with Him. Maybe so we will seek Him . . . maybe to chasten. . . I don't know. . . I do know it works. . . I am on my knees before Him. . . I seek Him again and again. . . If we truly humble ourselves before Him. . . STOP telling Him who He is. . . and seek Him. . . Stop putting ourselves above Him. He will reveal Himself to us. He is not a designer God. . . who exists in the state of zero. . . He is Holy. . Remember, the pride of man brings a snare, but HE who trust in the Lord will be safe. . He said: I AM that I Am. Hear and give ear; be not proud, for the LORD has spoken. Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he gives favor. For though the LORD is high, he regards the lowly, but the haughty he knows from afar. How long, O LORD? Will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me? When you hide your face, they are dismayed; when you take away their breath, they die and return to their dust Whoever has a haughty look and an arrogant heart I will not endure. Haughty eyes and a proud heart, the lamp of the wicked, are sin Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Dot, I too think He was the pre-incarnate Christ. . . like Bride said. . . . "The writer of Hebrews clearly connotes that Christ is the one referred to in Psalms 110, Hebrews 5 and 7. So who is he? I think it was the pre-incarnate Christ in physical form. "

I take it your done :) and so was I until I saw your post. Just to let you know, I really respect what you have to say. . . I don't read everyone, I read you though. What I saw and what you said must have been two differing things. So, I hope you will forgive me? :) Now, don't tell me you don't know how. . . I hear you have some practice!! It sounded like you were implying it was said that we are to hate our enemies. My bad if you were not directing that at me. Let's meet up in politics--we can have some fun there. . . we are both as liberal as they come. . . I think. I am at least. . . and happy to admit it. I also have some great recipes. . . On this topic. . . we will not agree, but that does not mean I don't respect you. I like the glimpse of your heart I often see. Merry Christmas. Hubby and I are going to a women's prison this Christmas. . . there is a little party. . . believe it or not. . . many of those prisoners are amazing people. Truly wonderful. Sometimes it is heartbreaking, but always rewarding. Take Care, Geisha

Fascinating summation Pond. Guess you must be right. . . blows the whole point of Greasespot. . . to tell the other side of the story. So glad the bible is silent on the topic as well. Jesus was silent. . . Paul, John, Jude, the watchmen who blow the whistle. . . all complainers. Brute beasts and all the other pejorative used in the bible to describe them. . . hurling insults I guess. Just as long as it is not offensive cause it is all about lovey dovey. . happy thoughts and good feelings. . . right? I hope some day you actually understand what joy of the Lord means. . . might just surprize you.

Pond, You have told me I hate now several times. . . Don't worry, I forgive you. Really loving BTW. God is Holy. We have had this discussion before. It is not about us being "okay" before Him as we are. The bible does not omit the phrase "Fear of God" . . . . true respect for His power and Glory as He is. . . It is not about us. . . it is about Him. His glory. We are forgiven when we repent and accept Jesus as Lord. Not when we lead people from Him. Not when we deny Him. It is a great offense to do this. . . we do not tolerate it. We do not wink at it. . . we do not say it is okay. VP raped women. . . had them drugged. . . abused them sexually. . . commited serial adultery. . . he destroyed many people Pond. . . not just physically. . . there are so many people running around believing they are saved because of VP's unique "gospel" message. VP denied the very Lord that bought him. . . He took many down the same path. Led people into great sin. He is not forgiven. Those who do the same must repent(change) to be forgiven. If they don't hear that it is wrong. . . if they continue to justify it by the Word of God. . . how will they repent? By you telling them it is okay. . . God loves them ust the way they are. Yet I am hateful for speaking up. I am wrong for not glossing over this. I am unloving by not accepting it? I am bitter. We are at enmity with these people if we truly belong to God, but we can pray for them and tell them. That is what the bible says. . . snatch them from the FIRE. You can call it emotion, call it anxious, call it whatever you want. Hey, VP called His actions "Spiritual". I just find it interesting that I am the bad one. They stoned the prophets because they didn't like the message, guess it wasn't loving enough for them? The bible never speaks of judgment, sin, evil or hell? We don't either? Too unloving? I know you don't like to hear these things. . . we have had this go around before, but I gotta ask you. . . if we don't really understand how bad we are before a Holy God, how do we ever truly repent? Who is our substitute? Why do we need one? What is it about God that makes Him not abide sin? Why does He chasten us AFTER we are saved? What is the goal? God is not a warm and fuzzy teddy bear. . . HE is a Holy God that loves us with a perfect love. He convicts us of our sins and commands us to turn away from them. He is patient and kind and good to us, merciful and gracious, longsuffering toward us as we do this. . . but, HE expects us to do it. If we truly love we will tell people about how loving and holy God is. . . . why we need a savior. That may involve some talk of sin. Jesus proclaimed blessings to His true believers and woe to the world. . . unloving? What you think really doesn't matter. . . I am more interested in what God actually says. The truth of the matter, not someone's idea of God, but who He really is. When it comes to false teachers. . . . they are so unique the bible calls them natural brute beasts. Rather unloving sounding. . .

Really awesome Mark, and I think Dr Seuss would love it too!

Just one more thing Linda. Jesus didn't tell someone they were of their father the devil, for the sake of others. He spoke to them as God BTW. When Paul spoke of false teachers was he speaking as the Son of God? It is NOT about us. It is about God, His glory, His Rightness, His power, His goodness. He came to destroy the works of the devil. It is not about our sense of freedom, it is about freedom from sin. . . we are empowered in Christ. Stepping out of a fight against wrong sure would be alot less burdensome. He loved them . . . in that He came and died for the sins of the world. Should they have repented. . . they would have been forgiven. That is the condition! Look at Paul. No one is seeking revenge. . . . no one is hating. Calling them what they are is NOT hate. . . exposing what they did is NOT revenge. What would be hateful is to let others stumble into that cult without warning exactly who they are and what they teach. You are going to call them evil. . . while forgiving them? Okay, but how? If a wolf comes in and eats the sheep. . .are you going to pat the wolf on the head and say "It's okay I forgive you?" Let him go His merry way to eat more sheep? After all, you forgave him, pardoned him, absolved him. . . . that is what TRUE forgiveness does. How are you going to warn the next sheep herder? True forgiveness is divine and it is rare in we humans. Nearly impossible when one really considers it. We don't honor God with our lips. . . when we forgive it is from the heart. Don't mistake forgiveness with denial. If you forgive them. . . you speak of it no more. . . . it is gone. You no longer warn of the evil. . . . it is forgiven. What they did was not only an offense against you, it was an offense against God. To be forgiven by God they must repent. Read Revelation. . . the warnings to the churches. No where does it say "good for you. . . you forgave them" It says . . . you tolerated them. . . judgment has come upon you. . . . you didn't remove them from you. Not "gee, you let it go to be empowered". That is Jesus speaking as well. Spiritual darkness resulting from false teaching. Severe chastening unless the true believers repented of tolerating them and believing their lies. Pretty bitter?

Who are you to say others are bitter and ....ed off because they speak up? Psychic are we? If you don't understand who TWI is or what they taught as being evil. . . . and you still adhere to what it was they taught as Christianity. . . I can see your point. I believe they are exactly who Jesus, Paul, Jude, and John spoke of. . . .who the OT warned us about. Read the words written. . . really read what was said about them. It isn't a little "Oh by the way". . . it is powerful and pointed. There would be some that pervert the gospel of God. Know exactly who it is you are advocating forgivness for and then get back to me. You are not to go near them . . . listen to them. . . BUT remove yourselves FROM them. . . Paul WARNED others NIGHT and DAY with tears!!!! Jesus forgave the thief on the cross, the woman caught in adultery, the woman at the well, all kinds of sinners. NO WHERE in the bible does it say to forgive false teachers. They are an evil influence and they wax worse and worse. They corrupt--they pollute. . . . If I were to only use what is written about them in a single post. . . would you then call me bitter? They are not my words? But they are harsh and they are pointed and they are definite in meaning. Read them yourselves and then call me bitter. What I find amazing is that outrage and disgust over what they taught and the evil of their actions could ever diminish. All you need do is look around at the destruction wrought in the lives of those who post here. Should renew your heart against their heresy every single day. People who love God abhor evil. Hate it.

Pond, God actually tells us about false teachers. He tells us they have a reservation with him. . . so to speak. Their judgment is not idle. I gave you the verses. . . I gave you ALL the names used to describe them. What else is it you think will happen? We are not speaking of a brother here. TWI was not a Christian organization. Vp was not mislead. . . he was wicked. What he taught was FALSE. . . what he did to people was EVIL. HE was a false teacher. . . . teaching(You guessed it) false doctrine. When Paul said: They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. But I am not surprised! Even Satan disquises himself as an angel of light. So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve. . . . was he being disobedient to Jesus and His commandment to forgive? Was he? When I left for Macedonia, I urged you to stay there in Ephesus and stop those whose teaching is contrary to the truth. We are speaking about two different things here. . . at cross purposes. Should they repent. . . . meaning CHANGE then no problem. VP didn't change. . . he waxed worse and worse. . . .bolder and bolder. Why is it you want people to forgive that? Did Paul? Did Jesus? Does God? On the other hand, if you do not believe VP was a false teacher, but a brother, then let's look at how Jesus said to deal with an offending brother. For the sake of argument, let's just say RAPE is offensive. Matthew 18 4 steps. 1. Show him his fault privately. 2. Take one or two with you 3. Bring him before the whole church If he does not respond to all those attempts at reconciliation, 4. Is to REMOVE him from the assembly and he is to be regarded as a tax collector or gentile. BTW. . What Jesus told Peter was . . . "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him." Do you notice here that Jesus says. . . be on your guard? "Your brother" That if he repents after you rebuke him. . . forgive him. IF he returns 7 times a day saying "I repent". Do you understand we are not to gloss over sin? We rebuke it in others? We know evil from good? Rebuking someone in sin is love. God does it. HE loves us. What is love? Not that it doesn't matter. . . .that it does matter to us. That people are not seperated from God or causing issues with their sin. It is expected that those in the world cause Christians to stumble. . . and they will be judged for it. But if a fellow believer leads one into sin--it is better a rock be tied around their neck. So either way. . . . some vauge idea of blanket forgivness for evil. . . just doesn't fly. Causing a brother or sister in Christ to stumble or sin, (Purposely leading someone astray)is more than simply an offensive act against that person, it is a serious offense against the Lord Himself. Now, how much more is it. . . . when one justifys it in the name of God. Pond, this is serious stuff with God. Look a bit closer at what He tells us to be aware of. . . . to know. . . . to understand. Jesus saves sinners when they repent and turn from sin. If a person does not repent they are spurning Christ offer. The love we are talking about that paved the way is that God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son. That is what it is. In order to accept Him, we must repent. Yes, God wants all saved. . . He tells us how. . . throught repentance and belief in Jesus. That is the LOVE of God. It is enough. That is how God reveals His love. How is that slapping anyone silly? Telling them they need to repent?? Too much fire and brimstone for you. That we are sinners and must STOP. There is no group formed to judge who is the worst sinner. . . but I can tell you what the bible says about false teachers and sinning brothers. . . You seem to miss the whole point about a Holy God who can't stand sin and had to send His Son to die because of it. . . we too are to despise sin as well. Not only in our own lives, but all sin.

Are you talking about forgiving a brother when he repents or forgiving unrepentant false teachers? WHO are you speaking of forgiving? The ones who are wolves in sheeps clothing like VP and company---the ones who SCATTER the flock?? The ones who USE God and the bible to make merchandise of us? Just exactly who is it. . . . you are telling us we are to forgive?? Who are you judging as having stored unforgivness in their hearts. . . the generic we?? Or just me? God demands REPENTANCE in His forgivness. You can't be forgiven without acknowledging your sin. . . If we CONFESS our sins. . . . he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. What? I can forgive VP his unrepentant sins against a Holy God?? I have that power?? Do I have the power to absolve him of his evil? My saying I forgive him for abusing others in the name of God or leading people AWAY from Jesus will heal my heart?? He disgusts me. He always will. That doesn't make me BITTER--I love God's rightness and abhor evil. Paul told Philemon to forgive Onesimus because he was now a true brother. . . Paul had begotten him while he was in prison. HE didn't appeal to Philemon to take back Onesimus just because he HAD to forgive him. . . but that he was now useful--transformed by God's grace. Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Paul had the Corinthian church remove an ACTUAL brother. . . he was judged by Paul. He was not tolerated within the church. Of course I get to decide what is evil ---- God expects me too. I am to discern evil. It does say to love your enemies and bless those that persecute you. . . love them. . . not wink and nod at evil. You call it hate. . . I call it being a watchmen. And Pond, I have prayed to God that He not hold these sins against these men on my account. I know what it means when the bible says it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But, I still must trust His judgment which is already spoken of concerning these leaders.

Injustice? Should DISTURB us. . . Blaming the victim? Calling people bitter and hateful when they point out evil behavior? These are things that run contrary to our hearts. . . or they should. Reminds me of the right wing evangelicals. Just does. Convenient Christianity. You get any pagan or unbeliever with a modicum of decency and ask them if this is "Right" and they will tell you NO!! I have to wonder when it was the bible told us to check OUR brains and hearts at the door before we enter. Jesus didn't run around forgiving the Pharisees--He called them what they were. . . told them they were going to HELL. . . . VP did the SAME things they did. . . an outward appearance of Godliness. . . . inside a whole other story. He sexually abused women in the NAME OF GOD! He tore people and their lives apart. . . so wide reaching we don't even know the extent. LCM caused a SUICIDE!!!! They were unrepentant. . . . didn't say "gee sorry". . . they kept justifying it! Hello? How are the ones who point this out the hateful ones? Again, on what planet?

I will make it simple Pond. . . sometimes "sin" is a FELONY!!

Interesting Pond that you do not equate forgiveness with reconciliation? What is it then? It is true that God knows the intent of the heart. . . but, He didn't leave us ignorant as how to know people either. . . . by their fruit?? God does meet you where you are and then guess what? Commands you to turn around and go the other way!!! Repent?? Go and sin no more?? BTW The thief on the cross turned to the Lord. . . .repented. The other was hurling insults at Him. They were not both forgiven. It is not like our actions do not affect others?? That is why we are admonished with moral standards. . . . it is not a big free for all. We are accountable to God for our actions. He tells us. . . "If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea." God does not take this stuff lightly. Nor should we. Are we not His ambassadors?? We are told in this life to abhor evil. . . and for anyone to pass it off as grace or place the burden on the victim of evil behavior is shameful. It is like telling the rape victim--the real issue is you and your lack of forgiveness. Not bringing the guilty person before a judge to be JUDGED!! Remember, God DOES place some execution of judgment in man's hands. Unbelieving hands to boot!! Romans 13. He bears not the sword in vain. Not bearing evil is not "exacting vengance"--they are two differing things. Why do you think we have church discipline or laws? The next step from it is all grace is "let sin abound". . . . p-a-r-t-y!! Been there--done that. When Jesus speaks of judging lest ye be judged. . . He is clearly speaking of HYPOCRITICAL judgment. Not rational judgment! Where is the "hate and power trip" in saying abuse is wrong--I do not condone it--nor will wink at it. I am to abhor it! Who is demanding people be good? Where is this coming from? Pointing out something wrong is now demanding someone be good? That is religious. . . right there. . . and a twisting of the intent and heart of the gospel. Jesus always brings things back to the human condition. Always. So simply. He knew and knows the heart and intent of people. Did you ever read the gospels? Do you notice what He says and does with the Pharisees? Tripped them up . . . called them names. . . exposed them? Why? Didn't He love them too? Didn't He have to forgive them? Save them? He told them they were of their father the devil. . . . Jesus hated unbelief, spiritual pride, indifference to human need, hypocrisy, and impurity. I think we just summed up TWI leadership. . . doesn't bode well they were fleecing instead of feeding the flock. Don't know about you, but I don't want to be standing next to them on judgment day. I sure am not going to tell their victims they are bitter hateful people. I think you might have your religious people a bit mixed up. I really do. . . .

I stand by what I said. I do not bear them beautifully. I won't be admonished to. Their judgement is already spoken of. . . . I am not the one who judges them. I am not ignorant of who they are. . . THAT is what got me into trouble in the first place. I can pray for their repentance, I can't forgive them their sins . . . they are against a HOLY God. They do this stuff in His name! I do not condone it, wink at it, or brush it aside. Strong language like John 8 when Jesus said "You are of your father. . . the devil?" Brood of Vipers. . . Whited Sepulchres? Here is some strong language for you. . . . But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. Suppose a prophet or one who foretells by dreams should appear among you and show you a sign or wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder should come to pass concerning what he said to you, namely, “Let us follow other gods” – gods whom you have not previously known – “and let us serve them.” 3 You must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer, for the Lord your God will be testing you to see if you love him with all your mind and being. 4 You must follow the Lord your God and revere only him; and you must observe his commandments, obey him, serve him, and remain loyal... Watch out for yourselves and for all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. 29 I know that after I am gone fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Even from among your own group men will arise, teaching perversions of the truth to draw the disciples away after them. 1:3 As I urged you when I was leaving for Macedonia, stay on in Ephesus 1 to instruct 2 certain people not to spread false teachings, 3 1:4 nor to occupy themselves with myths and interminable genealogies. 4 Such things promote useless speculations rather than God’s redemptive plan 5 that operates by faith. 1:5 But the aim of our instruction 6 is love that comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith. 7 1:6 Some have strayed from these and turned away to empty discussion. 1:7 They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or the things they insist on so confidently. 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are following a different gospel – 7 not that there really is another gospel, but there are some who are disturbing you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned... 2:14 Remind people of these things and solemnly charge them 2 before the Lord 3 not to wrangle over words. This is of no benefit; it just brings ruin on those who listen. 4 2:15 Make every effort to present yourself before God as a proven worker who does not need to be ashamed, teaching the message of truth accurately. 5 2:16 But avoid profane chatter, 6 because those occupied with it will stray further and further into ungodliness, 7 2:17 and their message will spread its infection 8 like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are in this group. 9 2:18 They have strayed from the truth 10 by saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they are undermining some people’s faith. 2:19 However, God’s solid foundation remains standing, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” 11 and “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord 12 must turn away from evil.” 2:20 Now in a wealthy home 13 there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also ones made of wood and of clay, and some are for honorable use, but others for ignoble use. 14 2:21 So if someone cleanses himself of such behavior, 15 he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart, useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of those who mutilate the flesh! 1:10 For there are many rebellious people, idle talkers, and deceivers, especially those with Jewish connections, 2 1:11 who must be silenced because they mislead whole families by teaching for dishonest gain what ought not to be taught. 1:12 A certain one of them, in fact, one of their own prophets, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 1:13 Such testimony is true. For this reason rebuke them 1:16 . . . . . They profess to know God but with their deeds they deny him, since they are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good deed. This is what the sovereign Lord says: Woe to the foolish prophets who follow their own spirit but have seen nothing! 4 Your prophets have become like jackals among the ruins. . . “Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruit. Grapes are not gathered from thorns or figs from thistles, are they? 17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree is not able to bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree to bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will recognize them by their fruit. I could go on. . . . what is the point--forgive--forget---condone--whatever. . . I will just call those who use God's grace, deny Jesus and maim in the name of God exactly what they are. I will NEVER follow or excuse people like that again. BTW--They put people in PRISON for some of the things done by TWI leadership. Yes cman that is Exactly what I meant by moral relativity.