geisha779

I don't pray for you to change your beliefs. . . I pray for your health. . . . everyday

Actually this was your initial response to me. . . . posted directly below my question. . . a simple question with caviat "If you want". Let's see, my prayer is considered harm and insulting. . . I am lectured about trying to "win" people to my faith. . . .by simply asking to separate the man and His message from man's religion. . . . meaning what do you think about Him as a human. . . NOT GOD. Well, you can read it. . . then I HUMBLE myself and apologise. . . answer OAKSPEAR and I am told over here that I don't repspect your choices. I tell you the things of God are not for you. . . the things which you yourself profess to REJECT and I am insulting. Have it however you like it Bramble. . . I see the calvary is here. . . Have fun guys. Bramble in response to my question. . . I am not interested in a thread about why bramble is not a Christian, so this is all I will say to the above. geisha, I self identify as an eclectic Wiccan( or eclectic Wiccanlike pagan, depending who I am chatting with). That 'title' gives people a connecting place. I am not pagan because LCM and VPW were jerks and TWI was a cult. In my view, the pagan beliefs are the real authentic me. It fits. I don't have other words to describe it, but I know it at a nonverbal level within myself. I don't believe in the Bible as the Truth( I also don't believe the gnostic gospels as the truth), or in one god, or in the Fall, or original sin or in a savior for mankind, or in one way, one religion for all mankind. I'm not positive Jesus of the Bible actually existed, but if he did I think he may have been a wise and radical teacher who fit into the dying god mythos of the ancients... I do not believe in the divinity, son of God etc. Those are Christian beliefs, obviously, not mine. I am not fearful of the Bible God or Hell and am willing to take full responsibilty for my life in this life and the next. I find the idea of someone praying for me to leave my beliefs and accept their beliefs rather insulting. Some Wiccans/pagans believe that type of prayer is manipulative magic and brings no good because manipulation of another without their consent is a type of harm. I do not see the doctrinal forum as a place to 'win' people to my religion. I believe they should seek and find their own truths.

I didn't get an answer. . . I got a lecture. I asked you about the historical figure Jesus . . . added the caviat "If you want". . . apologized for offending you and here we are. . . . Keep flogging that dead horse. . . I mentioned Jesus and prayer. . . quoted scripture and tried to make conversation on a thread about Jesus. Oh the humanity.

My belief system is not about me at all. . . perhaps I don't make that clear. . . it is about Jesus. . . but you seem overly concerned with that belief system somehow encroaching upon yours. While speaking of DOCTRINAL issues in a DOCTRINAL forum on an ex-cult site in a thread about the bible, Jesus, or prayer. . . may or may not seem like boundry hopping to you. . . I must internally question that logic. You reject Christianity as your faith. You clearly have articulated that you stand by your words. . . with no fear or trepidation. I CAN respect that. Got it. . . I articulate my faith. . . what you believe . . . you have articulated. . . I can respect your choice, but don't have to repect your faith as it runs contrary to what I truly believe. That means Bramble. . . my entire---complete---and all encompassing world view. An objective truth. Meaning. . . truth with a corresponding object. . . which by its very nature rejects all other opposing or alternate objects. There you have it Seems to me. . . you have a very difficult time respecting my choice. . . which appears to be offensive to you. . .no surprize. . . the bible speaks of this very thing. I have NO desire to offer you or others who reject Him. . . the Holy things of God. You have made clear you don't want them. They are not FOR you. They do not belong to you. . They belong to those who believe on Him. Am I clear enough? Let me articulate with the words of Jesus. . . "Never give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls before pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them with their feet and then turn around and attack you." Just to add: It in no way is surprizing to me that you have an opinion about a faith and community you reject. . . but if you would take note. . . although I reject your faith. . . other than a clear rejection of it. . . I offer no insight into it or opinion of it. . . you are certainly free to participate in a conversation about the Christian faith and what you perceive its weakness or strength. . . I am free to wonder why you would?

First, witches don't shock me. . . what they do. . . practice. . . . believe. . . .doesn't have the shock value it might for other Christians. . . Either way. . . It is a moot point. . . it is not going to happen. . . and it wouldn't really bother me if some misguided whitch did cast a spell. . . Now, let me answer your first question by posing one of mine own. If I actually. . . wholeheartedly. . . without doubt and trepidation believe the gospel of Christ. . . and actually believe within my deepest core. . . that Jesus is the only way to God. . . that there is eternal consequences to rejecting Him. . . why would I NOT tell you about this. . . make every effort to ensure you hear. . . and pray to the God I believe in. . . for your soul. . . . Your unbelief in no way invalidates my belief. . . it puts us at cross purposes. . . something the bible clearly covers.

Oakspear, I am often as clear as mud. . . . let me be a bit more clear. . . . Jeff painted an amazing picture of Jesus in his first two posts. To me intriguing. . . to you and Bramble. . . obviously it must have been interesting enough to cause you to participate in a thread about a possible MARRIAGE of Jesus. Even the ORIGINS of such a rumor. Jeff mentioned Jesus fufilling scripture. . . . he also spoke of Jesus and His radical departure from the cultural norm concerning women. . . How He ministered to women. . . whether you believe the bible to be the inspired word of God is actually irrelevant to you participating in a discussion. . . . a fact you and Bramble have illustrated by your responses. In your response you indicated some kind of familararity with extra biblical writing. . . Hence my query. So, given that there is much speculation about the man. . . . and given that there is MORE than enough information about Him. . . available for you to form an opinion. . . . I asked. You don't have to believe the bible historically accurate. . . to know what it says and to discuss a documented historical figure. He is probably THE MOST discussed man in the last 2000 years of HISTORY. . . the most specualted on. . . one of the most CONTROVERSIAL. . . For some old dead Jew. . . He makes it onto the cover of Time magazine quite a bit. . . . I think we once agreed the bible is one of the best preserved ancient books we have. . . if not I can happily refresh your memory. . . you don't have to believe IN it to discuss it. Otherwise, why answer at all? Jeff obviously put a great deal of time and effort into his thoughts. . . My question?. . NOT out of the realm of a logical inquiry. . . . NOT an attempt to convert, and certainly NOT an attempt to insult. . . .NOT out of bounds considering I didn't summon you. . . Bramble you could have just ignored me. . . . I certainly gave you that option. . . . . . I only asked you out of politness and an overflow of good manners. But now . . . before worrying so I am out convert you. . . consider this. . . I am admonished not to cast pearls before swine. . . not very flattering I know. . . . but honestly, the bible is not always so concerning unbelievers. I just try to be polite to you. . . another admonishment.

Bramble, I in no way meant to offend you, but if I did I am sorry. Since this is a thread about Jesus and you answered Jeff, I thought it no way proselytizing to ask what you thought of Jesus. If nothing else, Jesus has a very interesting message. . . . one that often deals with the human condition . . . . something we can all relate to as humans. I was playing with Oakspear a bit when I mentioned the knees and his sorry soul. . . note the smiley face. When I pray for someone it is done with a heart of love, I cannot imagine praying to God for someone any other way. It so happens I pray for you and your health and well being. . . how could that possibly offend. . . if nothing else. . . it is someone wishing only good things for you. Thanks for the response. :)

Oakspear, My knees are nearly worn out praying for your sorry soul :) I don't give up though. . . and neither does God. I was sincere when I asked Jeff to tell more of his thoughts about Jesus---I am enjoying his posts. . . I wonder what your thoughts are on this man Jesus and His mission to save the world. . . I know you could tell me you don't give it much thought, but since you are here. . . who is this guy Jesus? What do you think of Him? Humor me. . . :) You too Bramble. . . if you want. . . can we separate religion of men from the man Himself?

Maybe the overall story has been told. The Way International is a cult. SO. . . What does that mean? I think it means that. . . . Each of us have a story. A unique tale of our time in TWI. What happened to us as individuals . . . and that is what fills in the gaps. . . completes the story. . . that is what exposes the lies . . . the truth of us. It is important because we are important. . . and what happened to us matters. We matter. All the hurt. . . the pain. . . the trauma. . . it is real. . . and I don't care if it happened twenty years ago or yesterday. . . it happened. It did help to shape us, and YES. . of course. . . . it does not have to define us. . . Yet, who is really willing listen and understand. . . able to relate to the mixed cornucopia of emotions that come with having been in a cult? Our cult. Those who have lived it. Those who know. There are many of us extwiers. . . yet in the "real world" it seems very few. . . . I am glad to have heard the stories and shared some of mine. . it really has helped me put my cult daze into a better perspective. I don't share my cult experience with many. . . it seems too often to throw up an invisible wall. . . It is not everyday conversation either, and if someone has not experienced it. . . . they don't know. People who find themselves in groups like TWI. . . are not all crazy or broken, many are educated, sensitive, caring, GOODhearted people. We got caught up in something. . . we thought it was right. . . maybe it just wasn't that easy to see how it was changing or shaping us. Even now, maybe some don't. But, what GSC has done is . . . it has helped me so much to see those things more clearly, because it is a shared experience and when I hear others. . it serves to clarify. It really does. And for the record. . . I am of the opinion that ex-twiers are among the best and brightest. So, as long as there are those who haved lived the "abundant life" Way Style. . . this place is viable.

Kit, Thanks so much for all your comments on here. . . I love Oswald Chambers as well. . . I also want to thank you so much for your mention of VOM. I worked on a few things with them. . . my son runs their promos on his radio show. . . they are a wonderful group of Christians. If anyone really wants to learn more about the persecuted church and how to help VOM the website Kit posted is a great place to go. How quickly my silly troubles fade once I focus my efforts there. A humbling and rewarding experience. . . serving the prisoners and persecuted faithful. As for this thread. . . ex-10 made some of the best comments and observations I have read on GSC. It is so amazing to read someone delivered from TWI's teachings. Kit thank you again. Remember the persecuted church in your prayers!!

Hi Jeff, Hope you are doing well. . . just off the top of my head, I think the idea stems from speculation. . .I am pretty sure some of it has its root in the gnostic gospels(MAybe :) ). . . it is speculation about the years of Jesus life that are unaccounted for. . . I am not sure if there is anything in the gospel of Peter that would lead to that speculation, but I know Mary was spoken of in stronger terms there. It is difficult to account for those years. . . hard to really piece anything together other than a general picture. There are only a few records for the historical Jesus. People speculate. Dan Brown made a fortune doing it and many people just blithely accepted it as historical fact. I think the Mormons debate it. . . Jesus is a controversial figure. He claimed to be the Son of God. Salvation of humanity rests on whether He told the truth. Some speculate He survived crucifixion. Is that the Muslims? Some say He ran off to India. . . Anything but really deal with who He is I guess? I do love the way Jesus was with women. A radical departure from the culture of the day. Tell us more about Him, what you believe? I have so enjoyed reading it thus far.. . . . .

Secular food banks were more empty as well. . . it is the economy . . . . more need. Bramble many many of the Christian kids . . . kids LOL . . . in their 20's. . . are serving more and more in churches. Doing missons and here at home. The plight of the poor is not being ignored or forgotten. . . your area may be a small snap shot, but there is a trend with young Christians. . . to serve the needy. Where Christ heart is. . . there will be help. I am hoping the prosperity gospel dies a quick death. . . it is looking that way. . . I have to agree with George Aar. . . it is a scam to fleece the flock. It isn't what all churches and ministry is about. . . seems to be maybe, but it isn't.

I hope that belief buckles under something Bramble. I think it really misses the greater picture of Christ message. So much of what He said was to feed, clothe and serve the poor. . . most of the Christians I know do this. . . many at great sacrifice to themselves. Then again, they don't believe it is about them anyway. :) My in-laws are atheists and have spent their adult lives doing this. . . I have such love and respect for them. . . we are close. I can relate more to their lives than I can to those health and wealth Christians. There is NOTHING wrong with having. . . . but I don't think it is the point of the gospel. . . and it really makes me sad at times. As Christians our lives are not our own. . . we are servants. . . it doesn't matter who the poor are either. . . from Christian to crimminal. . . muslim to gay. . . we are to serve. To lay down our lives if need be. It isn't even about this life, so when I hear Joel Olstein or Joyce Myer. . . I just wonder. I have had plenty and I have had want. . . when I need. . . I am down on my knees asking. . . when I don't need. . . I am asking less. Hmmmmm?? Right now we are dealing with some of these issues at our church. Exactly the same as you mentioned really. . . but it has opened up a real dialogue and it has been productive. My heart is that people see God. . . as He is. . . He always supplies what I need. . . sometimes what I want. I am thankful for all I have. Since it is the doctrinal forum, I wanted to add this. . . I know you are a wiccan, but . . indulge me. . . . please :) It is my belief that when God created us. . . it was for worship. . . every good thing He gave us. . . food, love, marriage, sex, comfort, and most of all fellowship with Him was to be recieved with such gladness that it resulted in true worship. . . Things got knackered. . . as they do. . . and in His perfect plan Jesus redeemed us. . . so that all of that is now possible. . . to recieve with such gladness the good things of God and the result is worship. Not greed or want. . . gratitude and worship. That is my 2 cents. . . I love that YOU brought this up!!

Don't overreact too much. Seems to me, if a majority of actual Christ following Christians----who have a personal relationship with Jesus. . . . meaning know Him. . . . have the Holy Spirit indwelling. . . . true believers. . . . would reject your thoughts on Job. . . wouldn't that be a big heads up to rethink it? Honest question. Seems to me. . . . call me crazy. . . we share a common faith as Christians. . . Now, I can see questioning something. . . but rejecting it?? Pretty strong language there. As for the first part of my post. Reread it. . . it stands. Like I said. . . carry on and discuss away. I was hoping to share with you some of my faith, but I sense it is too Orthodox for you. All I posted was scripture for goodness sake. Very little commentary. . . and you make assumptions. . . it was scripture. . . from the bible. . . your sacred text. . . And cman. . . that post about a whore. . . vulgar.

Well, sirguessalot. . . I just had to respond to this. . . after a very good chuckle. Your "overall sense" was interesting to say the least, as was your very "productive" assumption. You don't get "it" THEREFORE you are saying it is wrong. Is that so? Wow. . . . you really have that whole truth thing cornered. After your assumption. . . your very own assumption. . . from you. . . that you wrote. . . .came from your thought process. . . you decide you can't respond to your own words and thoughts productively?? Why not?? Can't imagine how misunderstandings would pile up with a post like that. Here is what I am reading. . . . this is what I ASSUME it means. . . and I cannot respond to my own assumptions productively. Carry on. . . what is God today? We have already implied Jesus was a gay man. We have God assigned zero. The word othodoxy has been totally misused. . . . and we are breaking down scripture with "Reason." Can't wait to see what is next. . . and all this is to justify . . . what? A search for. . . who? The most glaring words in your post. . . for me. . . were "and i love the God of the Bible...as i have come to understand Him (and Love)" As you have come to understand Him. . . well, as He is, might serve enlightenment better than any abberant understanding that you place above the reality of God revealed through scripture. And BTW, I have no problem with natural theology. . . as long as it does not run contrary to the revelation of God through scripture. Through Jesus. “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.” His eternal Power and divine nature. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their measuring line goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world God's authoritative voice is evident. The same God of the bible you love. BTW, there are some GREAT teachings on Job, but if your thoughts would be agressively REJECTED by Christians. . . maybe you should rethink them. No?

Hey Tom Right back at ya. . . you have made me smile several times now. . . :) Things that make you go hmmmmm right? Maybe we will meet up in a thread about the God of the bible. . . Jehovah Here are a few that I know you will appreciate. . . from God's lips to hearing ears. . . Jeremiah 20:9 9 And if I say, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name, then there is in my heart as it were a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I am weary with forbearing, and I cannot contain. 1 Samuel 12:21 21 and turn ye not aside; for then would ye go after vain things which cannot profit nor deliver, for they are vain. Jeremiah 23:29 29 Is not my word like fire? saith Jehovah; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? and. . . . Ezekiel 22:28

Hey cman No you didn't and I got that in there at your expense. I guess I am just somewhat amazed by this thread. I am used to you and even agree with you sometimes, but as a Christian, I find this thread and the search for God beyond the scriptures somewhat futile. That is the bible, I am refering to. . . I do think there is some truth in other books, but since I follow Christ. . . I believe Him to be the truth. He is everywhere and He is beyond enough, as He is. . . . This discussion is surely not for me. . . :) No you didn't say that.

No taboos anymore. . . funny thing is. . . God never changes. . . and no where does He refer to Himself as zero. Then Job replied to the LORD: 2 I know that You can do anything and no plan of Yours can be thwarted. 3 [You asked,] "Who is this who conceals [My] counsel with ignorance?" Surely I spoke about things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. 4 [You said,] "Listen now, and I will speak. When I question you, you will inform Me." 5 I had heard rumors about You, but now my eyes have seen You. 6 Therefore I take back [my words] and repent in dust and ashes.

Have you ever in your life commanded the morning or assigned the dawn its place, so it may seize the edges of the earthand shake the wicked out of it? The earth is changed as clay is by a seal;[its hills] stand out like [the folds of] a garment. Light is withheld from the wicked,and the arm raised [in violence] is broken. Have you traveled to the sources of the sea or walked in the depths of the oceans? Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Have you seen the gates of death's shadow? Have you comprehended the extent of the earth? Tell [Me], if you know all this. Where is the road to the home of light?[Do you know] where darkness lives, so you can lead it back to its border?Are you familiar with the paths to its home? Don't you know? You were already born; you have lived so long! Have you entered the [place] where the snow is stored?Or have you seen the storehouses of hail, which I hold in reserve for times of trouble, for the day of warfare and battle? What road leads to [the place] where light is dispersed? [Where is the source of] the east wind that spreads across the earth? Who cuts a channel for the flooding rain or clears the way for lightning, to bring rain on an uninhabited land, [on] a desert with no human life, to satisfy the parched wastelandand cause the grass to sprout? Does the rain have a father? Who fathered the drops of dew? Whose womb did the ice come from? Who gave birth to the frost of heaven when water becomes as hard as stone, and the surface of the watery depths is frozen? Can you fasten the chains of the Pleiadesor loosen the belt of Orion? Can you bring out the constellations in their seasonand lead the Bear and her cubs? Do you know the laws of heaven? Can you impose its authority on earth? Can you command the cloudsso that a flood of water covers you? Can you send out lightning bolts, and they go? Do they report to you: "Here we are"? Who put wisdom in the heart or gave the mind understanding? Who has the wisdom to number the clouds? Or who can tilt the water jars of heaven when the dust hardens like cast metal and the clods [of dirt] stick together? Can you hunt prey for a lionessor satisfy the appetite of young lions when they crouch in their dens and lie in wait within their lairs? Who provides the raven's food when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food? and on it goes, but poor Job. . . . He has to answer all this! Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct [Him]? Let him who argues with God give an answer. 3 Then Job answered the LORD: 4 I am so insignificant. How can I answer You? I place my hand over my mouth. 5 I have spoken once, and I will not reply; twice, but [now] I can add nothing. 6 Then the LORD answered Job from the whirlwind: 7 Get ready to answer Me like a man; When I question you, you will inform Me. 8 Would you really challenge My justice? Would you declare Me guilty to justify yourself? 9 Do you have an arm like God's? Can you thunder with a voice like His? 10 Adorn yourself with majesty and splendor, and clothe yourself with honor and glory. 11 Unleash your raging anger; look on every proud person and humiliate him. 12 Look on every proud person and humble him; trample the wicked where they stand. 13 Hide them together in the dust; imprison them in the grave. 14 Then I will confess to you that your own right hand can deliver you.

Sometimes I just gotta to reign myself in. . . this usually helps. . . God speaks. . .not to a fool or schemer but to a righteous man. Who is this who obscures [My] counsel with ignorant words? Get ready to answer Me like a man;when I question you, you will inform Me Where were you when I established the earth? Tell [Me], if you have understanding. Who fixed its dimensions? Certainly you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? What supports its foundations? Or who laid its cornerstone while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Who enclosed the sea behind doors when it burst from the womb, when I made the clouds its garment and thick darkness its blanket, when I determined its boundaries and put [its] bars and doors in place, when I declared: "You may come this far, but no farther; your proud waves stop here"?

Actually Doc that might be an excellent topic for you to look at. . . the fear of God.. . . one of my favorites . . . . . . . . for our God is a consuming fire. do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. . . . For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe. . . . . You say God walks in ambiguity. . . perhaps God is more a paradox than ambiguitious. Sometimes when we don't understand something. . . we are quick to try and define it. . . it seems a natural human inclination. I get that. He is awesome and wonderful as revealed through scripture. Beyond really. So, why not seek out the God of the bible instead of ascribing numerical values and characteristics based on our finite understanding. Just a thought.

For someone claiming to break down scripture with reason . . . well you gotta wonder here?? Although I don't think blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is still possible. . . I could be wrong. Given that the Pharisees saw the miracles that Jesus did in the power of the Holy Spirit and still called Him demon possessed. . . probably not possible today. When TWI called the name of Jesus a devil spirit. . . meaning that the Jesus worshiped in the church and basically by the rest of Christendom. . . was actually a devil spirit. . . that was serious blasphemy. They were actually calling Jesus a demon. TWI was often blasphemous. . . in their teaching of the bible. . . . their worship of it. There are many definitions of blasphemy. Here is one. blaspheme - speak of in an irreverent or impious manner; "blaspheme God" God is Holy and to be praised and worshiped. . . and every knee WILL bow. . . we can run our mouths all day long about God now. . . who He is. . . who He is not. . . It is just good to keep in the back of your head that you will give an account to Him of which you speak. The bible is full of. . . consider this. . . . consider that. Sometimes it is really good to consider what He so graciously asks us to. . . .You have to wonder what all our "Opinions" will be worth when we bow before Him??

If the revelation of God in the bible is to be attacked. . . due to its obscurities and mysteries. . . then I suggest the science being used to ascribe God to zero be also questioned. That seems to dwell in the land of obscurity, mystery, and theory far more than the revelation of God through scripture. For someone claiming reason as their guide. . . some consistent logic would be good.

You can blame God if you want to, that is your choice. The bible has also been used to preach the gospel of Christ and reach millions with God's merciful message of salvation. There are people that RISK their lives smuggling bibles into other countries. One tattered bible shared between villages--pieces of paper with parts of the Holy Scriptures on them. . . cherished. I guess it is perspective. One man's Holy Word of God is another man's toilet paper. http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/8/13/2154/70327 Read it. A true story. A man cleaning latrines to get the precious word of God. . . cleaning it off after another used it for toilet paper.A prisoner in a communist prison camp. He found no ambiguity in the scripture. He found comfort and hope.

Bob Marley--No Woman No Cry