geisha779

Does he save us from our sin by dying? Or does he save us from our sin by setting the example of being WILLING to die because he so LOVED? I don't believe the act of dying, in and of itself, saved anyone. I don't believe resurrection saved anyone. I do believe by following the example he set, we do cast away our sins and become the loving people God desires us to be. We are saved from sin by following the example of love. By setting aside greed, lust, selfishness, etc. etc. Well, yes and no. . . . YES He does teach us to love by this very act, but no, He doesn't save us from our sins by teaching us how to make ourselves good enough, I am sure you understand from the OT about God's holy nature. I am also sure you understand the fall of man. We understand that . . . . try as we might. . . the ten commandments are impossible for us to keep. Heck, we can't even do the first two!! :) Which leaves us in a rather hopeless situation. The whole point of Christ sacrifice is that God actually became flesh, lived on the earth, knew what it was like to live as a man(So, he gets our situation) and He became our sacrifice. This is actually a bit bigger than someone paying your speeding ticket for you. :) It only takes one offense against a Holy God. . . . I can do that before breakfast. . . . in fact a good Christian prayer is "God, I have kept my thoughts on you, not sinned at all and have done as you require, but now I need your help. . . . because I am going to get out of bed" What a Christian understands is that no code of conduct will ever make us right with God. We couldn't keep it. So, in order for God to put things right, (remember He did this while we were still at odds with Him), He made a way for His wrath against sin to be satisfied and for us to have a relationship with Him. To enjoy Him. His wrath? Well, God is Holy and cannot abide sin. . . . so if God is truly just and He claims He is. . . He would have to mete out judgement. . . enter Jesus. . . now, here is the rub. . . He took on that wrath and judgement in our place. BTW, no mere man could stand that. The sins of the world? He became sin who knew no sin ( He was sinless. . . a perfect sacrifice) . God poured out what was owed to us on Jesus. So now, God can treat us like we lived Jesus perfect life. . . . no sin. . . . brillant really! All He requires is that we repent of our sins(Gotta see em first):) and that we believe the whole thing . . . . confessing Him Lord in our lives. Following Him. . . . We do tend to struggle with it. At least I did. . . trying to make it my own way. I had to face it. . . I am human. LOL The gift of eternal life. . . . which is once we die we get up again. . . . IF IF IF Jesus was resurrected. The two resurrections . . . Christ and the believer. . . stand and fall together. . . if He wasn't raised we will not be raised. Jesus has broken the power of death. It is my hope of resurrection that make all the efforts and sacrifices. . . . worth it. . . . no work done in His name is wasted in light of eternal glory and reward. Now conversely, what if we reject so great an offer to be reconciled at such a cost? By our own choosing we accept a four letter word. . . . :) Some call it HE double hockey sticks. LOL Jesus is the way God has declared Himself to us for the last time. . . . that is how a Christian knows God. And Abi, I would LOVE to discuss the epistles and Isaiah with you. . . I would be honored.

Abi, I use them for a couple of different reasons. First, because I recognize them as books that you use, and thus assume they communicate well to you. So, while I suppose I could have said the same thing without them, I think my meaning is more easily communicated by using them. I was teasing. . :) I saw it earlier and got a chuckle. Believe me when I say, while I disagree with you doctrinally on some things, I do believe you are a loving soul with nothing but the best of intent. And man, am I thankful that (IMO) intent of the heart is what matters most to God. I don't think he could care one lick (for instance) if someone is dunked or not. Similarly, I'm not convinced he cares whether or not we eat pork. Nor, do I believe he cares if we call him Allah or God or whatever. Linguistically when we use the term God. . . it is basically saying the same thing. . . Creator. . . Lord. . . With Islam the similarities are there in this respect. . . Islam, Christianity, and even Judaism are all monotheistic faiths. . . One God. . . but, it ends there. Islam is based on the premise that the Christian and Jewish bible wrongly define and describe God. It is not an issue of language but an issue definition concerning God. Their God is hard and remote. . . . not personal, does not have a Son and does not love unconditionally. Not to mention a denial of the triune nature of God which is a central doctrine in the Christian faith. When Muhammad was around so was the complete cannon. . . . it was not a matter of it being corrupt, but of him rejecting the God of the bible. His system changed the attributes of the God of the bible. The heart of a father we find in God is rejected. . . . the divinity Of His Son. . . . . and the person of the Holy Spirit. . . . Same word used to call on him. . . but a different God. What, exactly, does it mean to follow Jesus? It certainly must be more than TWI taught - giving lip service to a couple of verses while inflicting pain upon your brother and sister, yes? It certainly must be more than simply labelling yourself as Christian or Jew or Muslem, no? WHY would he tell the rich young ruler to sell his things and follow him? What was Jesus really saying? Perhaps the rich young ruler was caught up in the love of power and greed and Jesus was simply telling him to give up that love and replace it with a love for his fellow man? Well yes, it does mean more than smacking one upside the head with the bible while plotting their rape. Although I claimed Christianity as my faith in TWI. . . . there was nothing in my heart or life that exemplified any love or care for others. . . it was more about being right. That is the truth. . . the worst sins I ever committed were in TWI. Jesus came into the world to save it. . . not to condemn it. I was all about condeming in TWI. Judging others. . . deciding about them. I share the gospel now and express the love God has given me in deed. Well, I try! A Christians life and world view is bibically grounded in all aspects of life, and even more specifically in light of Jesus Christ. A Christian should be marked out by their love for others. . . .sadly this is not always the case. The parable of the good samaritan is a perfect illustration of true Christianity. Not only did it reveal the emptiness of the religious system of the day, but the man who actually helped him did it knowing he would get nothing in return. That should be our hearts as followers of Jesus. I think Christians can forget that we are not self-righteous, but come to the table empty handed. The pharisees had elevated hostility toward the wicked and those THEY thought were unrighteous to the status of a virtue. . . thereby nullifying the second great commandments. . . who is your neighbor? The same people the pharisees condemned Jesus went around healing and forgiving. Jesus commands us to love our enemies and bless those that persecute you. A blessing is a big deal. The bible says the earth is the Lords and all it contains. . . but some forget it says. . . the world and those who dwell in it. If we truly love God . . . we love others. . . how we are treated is inconsequential. Jesus was the example for this. We are to be forgiving people. . . the mark of a Christian. Which means you forgive and do not continue to harp on it. We look to Jesus as our only source of truth and all we have is hid in Him. Well, yes on the rich young ruler, that the riches of this world were nothing compared to what Jesus offered him. God says follow me and what you get is GOD. . . that is the hope of contentment. The blessing of the Lord makes rich and he adds no sorrow to it. Then we love others with the great love we are given. I would like to answer the rest soon. :)

Hi Abi, I am so glad to see you!! I can also understand that you don't count the NT in your faith. . . you are Jewish right? That makes sense. So, I do have to wonder why you would use the epistles as a basis for explaining something? :) First let me say this. . . it is important to really express this. . . I see compassion in the pluralistic perspective. . . I see a non-judgmental attitiude. . . I really do see good hearts. . . I have become quite fond of some of you heathen hoard.( Referencing a JOKE!!) I promise . . . a lame attempt at humor. And YES. . . . these are the ones Jesus did not take to. . . the greedy, mean, religious, politicians. . . yes yes yes!! I don't know. . . but from reading the gospels, I get the sense He did not like them. I would go so far as to say. . . there may be some who post here who exhibit more love and understanding IRL more than some who call themselves Christian. I mean that. However, Jesus did speak often of judgement. . . often of hell. . . and also of salvation. He claimed to be the Messiah. The Son of God. He told the rich young ruler that he was to sell His things and follow Jesus. . . but how do you follow someone you don't believe is who He says He is? He then becomes a liar. But, if He is whom He claims. . . and we reject His claim. . . where is the salvation. . . and if there is no hell. . . what are we saved from? Abi, if He was the promised Messiah. . . the one sent to save us from our sin. . . to redeem us. . .and the OT is true concerning it telling of Him. . . HE has to be the way to salvation. I try not to quote to much scripture here. . . I imagine people scroll down like I do!! LOL But I just have to . . . . Isaiah 9:6 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Isaiah 53:1-3 1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Isaiah 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting. Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Sombody's wrong here. . . either Jesus was a liar or He is the Messiah foretold of in the OT. . . . and if He is. . . and it is true that we have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. . . this is the way God made for us to be redeemed. . . no matter how good we are. I guess all the OT accounts of the holiness of God are helpful in understanding why we need a savior. I surely do NOT believe I am better than anyone. . . maybe I think I am worse in many ways. But, Abi, I want you to really consider my POV, I ask you because I know you actually do consider things. . . I see compassion in accepting all ways. . . but. . . if there is really only ONE way as I believe and as the bible states . . . all other paths lead to destruction. . . how compassionate would I be . . . how loving. . . how really caring. . . if I did not share this? It still comes down to "Who is Jesus".

Baptist dunk. . . . others sprinkle. . . . some raise hands and voices other quietly contemplate. . . . but all Christian denominations hold to the basic tenants of Christianity. . . other things are personal preference . . . . some things are cultural influences. Others are a focus on an aspect of faith. If I bow to Mecca 6 times a day and claim Allah as my God and then proclaim myself a Christian. . . . well, am I? No, not likely. There are basic tenants to the Christian faith. . . . creeds are an attempt to establish these basic traditional tenants. If this is not the case. . . . than there is no foundation for faith. . . no abberant practices and no wrong way. People CAN have a relativist view of Christianity from outside the faith. . . or stand outside it while trying to redefine it. That is what we did in TWI. Nothing new. Which is why we have what is known as Christian cults from a Christian perspective. Heretical or wrong understanding from traditional Christianity. Christianity defined by tradition, the bible, and creeds to establish these tenants. . . are often under attack by those who don't believe them. If really curious. . . denominations often begin as a renewal. . . . the reformation spawned denominations to restore teachings of justification by faith. . . . and God's sovereignty in salvation. . . denominations split when parts cave to a more liberal view. . . . Baptistis came within the reformation tradition. . . I am more non-denominational which is almost a denomination within itself. . . LOL Diversity within the church is not always a bad thing. . . . as long as false teaching is avoided. . . . there is such a thing as apostasy within the church. It is important as a Christian to really examine a church teaching and practice... There is a great website for anyone interested. . . . on how to find a good church. . . . http://www.9marks.org/ As for what about a Christian(Key word Christ) who doesn't have a personal relationship with Jesus? You got me on that one. . . . do they really exist?

Oakspear, I understand that is a position. . . yours. . . I respect that. I see your point. . . in a way. . . if I were to say to you. . . I have all truth and know everything about God. . . I don't. I state that I know absolute truth in a person. The nature of Jesus' claims BEGS the question. . . . was He telling the truth. . . the nature of His statements BEGS the question. Who was this guy. . . As C.S Lewis was known to say. . . was he a liar and a lunatic? He claimed to be the Son of God. . . He claimed He was the only way to salvation. . . He claimed all other ways lead to destruction. . . He spoke of a hell. . . . He spoke of consequences. . . .He was unequivacle. . . the humilty He required was to Him. . . to accepting Him as the only way. . . . The narrow gate. . . His way or the Highway. Now, if He was just some nut. . . no problem. . .call me crazy too. . . BUT, if He is who He says He is. . . uh oh. . . because He will have the power and authority to back up His claim. I can understand the temptation to brush aside the scriptures. . . but they are still with us. . .Jesus. . . still rearing His head. . . His claims are incredible. . . they are either true or a lie. . . their very nature leaves no room for an in between. So, if you really consider His claims. . . the question which presents itself is not are there many ways, but is He the only way as He claimed. . . was He who He claimed? If so, and you believe Him. . . . He is the only way to escape judgement. . . if you believe Him to be a liar. . . . We still have the human condition. . . the God vaccuum as it is called. . .

The first thing that get's attacked in any discusssion about the God of the bible is the integrity of the bible. For the sake of argument. . . let us state up front. . . the canon is not infalliable. . . man made. . . and we can rely heavily on something called "The providence of God" which is revealed in life as a whole. Without the fall back position of scripture. . . . I won't get bogged down in that discussion. . . and I will talk this out with myself if I have to. . . my buttons are offically pushed. If you don't believe that the bible is nothing more than another book. . . some true, some not. . . I respect that. . . I truly do. . . that is your understanding. . . I in no way seek to disabuse you of it. . . but I will defend why I believe it. . . hey, I will even say I could be wrong. . . but I do not think so. The bible is an amazing piece of work. . . and while I understand it has its detractors. . .it is the number one selling book of all time. . . the little red book is up there too, but I can make a strong argument as to why. . . . So, despite our own little ex-cult UNDERSTANDABLE reaction to the "Word of God" as it was shoved down our throats. . . . the bible is a popular book. I SO understand why people would be turned off by the very mention. . . God magnified His word above His name. . . and BTW. . . I do believe that was a twisted understanding of that passage. . . used to control. But, that is an aside. I do get it and EMPATHIZE with the cringe that can come with. . . . the bible is the only way. . . . Continuing. . . . The collection of books we have come to know as the bible was made slowly. When Moses wrote the first 5 books. . . they were taken and put in the most Holy place. . . Joshua added to them. . . The prophets who came after. . . added to the collection. . . . There is a reason the apocrypha are not in the protestant bible. Unlike the books included. . . . these books do not have an explicit or implicit claim to having been inspired by God. Some even DISCLAIM to being prophetic. Josephus gave the names of the authentic Jewish OT. . . which is what we have in the bible today. Judaism doesn't accept them. . . Jesus nor the Apostles never cited them as inspired. . . . they were added to the Catholic bible as a response to the Reformation. NT books were written by the Apostles and prophets of the same God and were accepted into the canon of growing scripture. . . . so here is what I believe. . . the 66 books we have today. . . the collection known as the bible. . . claim within themselves to be divinely inspired, ifalliable, and the inerrant Word of God. Only these books are acceptable as being inspired of God and written by His prophets. . . . I truly believe they have been preserved by the providence of God for edification of His people. Which is somewhat self-evident as you can buy a bible today!! The detractors continue to go to their just reward. . . the book remains.

The law of non contradiction states that contradictory statements cannot both at the same time be true IF it is true for you and not for me. . . . it is still true. . . is illogical. IF truth is objective. . . . meaning it has a corresponding object. . . than the logic follows. . . one truth. . . . When dealing with heady issues of faith and the concept of eternity. . . while it may feel good to say it doesn't matter. . . or we can't really know. . . or that it is just intolerance to believe one way and all other ways are wrong. . . arrogant. . . . The law of non contradiction states otherwise. . . pluralism contradicts the law of non contradiction. There are ways to reason out and follow a pattern of logic here. . . . it takes some effort and a true desire to go beyond feelings. . . there has to be a hunger inside. . . if one simply doesn't care. . . and anothers well thought out and reasoned faith is simply an irritant. . . then so be it. .. but integrity requires one state that position. I don't care. . . I don't like what you have reasoned out. How can one come to the conclusion Jesus is the only way to salvation with a modicum of assurety? The nature of the Christian faith is not given to this rationale because it believe and then see. . . . a paradox or is it??. . . . one can certainly evaluate other faiths. . . other ways and make a decision on what to believe. Or one can say all paths lead to God. . . a direct contradiction to scripture and often a position based in feeling. It sounds good. . . your way, my way, the highway, it is all the same. BUT. . . besides being a somewhat irrational position. . . . if scripture is correct. . . it is a damning position. I respect the agnostic more. . . "I don't care" is much more honest to my ears. "All logic depends on this simple principle. Rational thought and meaningful discourse demand it. To deny it is to deny all truth in one fell swoop."

Rummrunner, Of course life is a journey, hey, one martini and I am singing old REO Speedwagon songs and sliding under the table. Never had a cigar, and you know what? I don't believe I ever will!!! But you ENJOY yours and your life. . . drink a toast to me!! I saw compassion in the posting of that clip. . . . we are moved by the same kind of things. Bramble I didn't realize Jesus came for the protestant. . . . thanks for clearing that up. . . I was under the impression He came for all people and all we had to do was repent and believe on Him. What a ditz I am . . . it is just the protestants who get it. Then again. . . we can actually read what is written and said without an agenda if we are discussing hell. . . or not discuss it. . . I guess we will see on that day. . . the heavens declare the Glory of God . . . The earth shows His handiwork. . . for me Bramble I choose to worship the designer over the design. SUE ME! You are free to do whatever you want. . . . but, I would appreciate as much respect for my beliefs from you. . . as yours are given on this forum. Hey, shave your head and sell poppies in the airport for all I care. . . but here's a question for you. . . If you don't even believe in the concept of a hell. . . why do you EVEN care that I do? . . . sport maybe? I don't care that you are a witch, but maybe I should post on Wicca and what it is. . . or is it a secret? That way you can comment on the faith you actually believe on. . . . Oh yeah. . . I forgot. . . it IS a secret. LOL Your comment did me harm. . . . it was harmful to me. . . .the misrepresentation of my beliefs hurt my feelings. . . I am insulted. Maybe I will just turn the other cheek and let you have that one too. OR, we can talk about how Jesus is for all mankind. . . why He is the way. . . and how pluralism is an illogical concept. I choose . . . . the latter.Pluralism is illogical. . . either you are right. . . or I am. . . and Jesus is the only way. . . let's discuss it based on more than what "Feels right".

Ah Rumrunner that was a beautiful clip. . . we are made with such amazing ability and capacity for love. . . . are we not? If I could share with you the life and love and commitment of the woman who started this thread RG. . . . the love and hope and dedication equal to or even greater than the family in the clip. . . to her very special son. . . . without betraying her personal life. . . . I would write a book right here and now. If I could share just a small snapshot of the beauty of her son's heart. . . . you would probably weep. To me. . . that clip only exclaims how fearfully awesome we are made. It glorifies God. . . . If you had picked any other clip I would not have been half as moved, but in our very midst . . . . right here is a woman who has walked a very similar path. . . . She has done it with such grace. . . . all by herself. . . but never alone. I do love her dearly for these very reasons. . . always humbled!! Who do you think Jesus came for? The broken and those who are less in the eyes of the world. . . . the least shall be first. . . Rumrunner. if you saw who I spend my time with and whom I consider the greatest here. . . you would surely give me a big rubber neck second look. :) God is glorified in the broken. Jesus hung out with the outcasts. So, before we call God a Piker for even the concept of hell, remember until your dying breath. . . He offers you love. He offers Himself. He even offered His own beloved Son for you. He offers you great gifts. Hell is about rejecting that great love, goodness and understanding for something else. . . your choice for something else. . . He wants you to come to Him. . . He wants you to choose Him and to show you who He is. . . He is that clip. . . that kind of love and dedication and commitment and hope and heart. . . . He sees the broken and calls them to Him. . .He does not reject anyone. . . We reject Him. I just don't want us to do it based on a warped understanding of Him. He doesn't give up on us. . . . we give up on Him. . . maybe because we don't really see Him. I don't know what draws us away from such good. What I love about the bible and most especially about Jesus is that He nails the human condition. . . nails it. . . He does not condemn it. . . He really understands it. . . He offers a way for it. . . . funny thing. . . .the one thing we are so often not willing to do. . . . is the only thing He asks. . . believe. Nice clip rumrunner. . . One of my favorite songs too. . . really. . . Mercy Me THANKS for posting it. Hell is not the final solution

Rumrunner. . . . between your post and Oakspears I laughed right out loud. . . scared the cat. . . Believe me when I say. . . I meant to use the all encompassing Heathen Hoard. . . my only excuse is that it was too early in the am. Now that was a JOKE. . . . Geisha made a funny!! :)

Hi Garth, Well yes, if that was the sum total of it I could surely see your point. Since I posted John Piper's work, I would like to clarify a bit. If God were just a flawed human being, it would make absolute sense to come to those conclusions. To pronounce those moral judgements. . . and as I explained to RR it is sincerely difficult to define the God of the bible to one who has no fear of Him. Not a judgement here, more a reality about my writing and word skills! I know my experience and relationship to God is irrelevant to your understanding. . . I get that. . . but at the VERY least consider this. . . I am still here after the "Durn Heathens" thread. :) Like anyone else, I like to be liked, in fact, I am a people person, so I thrive on social interaction. . . . Ex-Way are my peeps. . . ya know, but I cannot compromise when it comes to God. So, I take some heat here. . .but contrary to what it may seem. . . I am not a masochist!! I WANT to share what I understand with the seeking. . . and sometimes enjoy talking to the ones who have found something else. But for me. . . . it is about God. Besides. . . some of you Pagan's and atheists have a keen wit. But, because I have come to KNOW God personally, meaning He is the largest factor in my life. . . . I believe the bible when it describes God. . . I know these things to be true because God is a friend to me. . . a father. . . my God. He is revealed to me. . . It is a very deep personal relationship. . . He communicates. . . (Not like in TWI with heavy Revy) but with the Holy Spirit. . . guides, teaches, and even chastens. . . . His love is amazing. . . . Bear with me . . . . I have a point. . . . and I am not out here in the wilderness. . . . there are millions of us who know and understand the God of scripture. . . . So, when I describe Him for you. . . it may not be what you understand or believe, but it cannot be dismissed with sarcasm either. . . Christianity is the worlds largest faith. . . people's lives are literally transformed. . . even if you believe it is some kind of mental illness. . . . brain chemical . . . or like the latest great theory. . . hardwired into our DNA. . . dismissing a witness is hard to do honestly. NOW the point. . . if God were like you and I . . . . I would "ditto" what you say. . . but He is not like us. . . God is righteous, meaning right. . . He is right. . . that means that all He does is right. . . He is perfect. . . He is Love. . . He can do no wrong. . . . every judgement He makes is just. . .God is joyful and happy, but it is nothing outside of Himself that causes Him to be this way. . . He is overflowing within Himself . Constant joy and love. . . happiness and peace. . . He takes pleasure in Himself. . . unlike us He needs no external source of joy and hapiness. He is self-exalting because He is worthy of it. . . . it is not like when WE are self-exalting. It is not ego or pride because God cannot have these things. . . . because He is RIGHT to exalt His perfection. He can do this and it be an act of love. . . . not an ego trip. Hard to relate to. . . which BTW is why we relate to Jesus. . . . When He tells US to do praise and worship. . . it is so we will find our happiness and fufillment. There is no pride or needed ego stroke. . . it is because He made us for this. . . to enjoy Him. The ultimate pleasure. . . EVER. . . is God. To be in His presence. . . to know His ways and to worship and praise Him. We are to delight in Him because that is where true delight is to be found. If we pretend to praise. . . pretend to worship because we think we should or for whatever reason. . . we are not really in a relationship with the real thing. And . . . this is not to say people don't seek delight in other things. . . if you worship His creation as a faith. . . you may find delight. . . BUT, it will not be the same thing. . . worshipping what He made. . . sure, it might be awesome for you. . . but just consider. . . it might be so awesome because He made it. How much greater would the maker be? As for His people. . . lot's of us don't get it. . . it is a journey. . . often a slow one with detours. . . but, if a Christian has offended you. . . a true Christian. . . I am sorry. From the bottom of my heart. Most of us just want you to have the same joy we have found. . . that is all. . . to enjoy Him now and eternally. IF just IF this is why we were made and it is denied. . . what is left but searching and sorrow. . . . the opposite of joy. I will say this. . . our journey is slow because God takes a lifetime to teach us. . . . the things of God do belong to His people. . . but He welcomes all who come to Him to be His people. Christianity is more than "The word". It is a relationship with the author. His people are people. . . . the same as you. . . NOT better, just forgiven. Like I said. . . poor writing skills. . .but I hope that clarifies.

LOL they say it is funny because it is true. . . I laughed! :) Two blondes were in a parking lot trying to unlock the door of their car with a coat hanger. First Blonde: "I can't seem to get this door unlocked! Second Blonde: Well you better hurry up. It's starting to rain and the top is down! Thanks!!

Rumrunner, I have RG's okay to take this off topic in response to you. . . WOW. . . those are some harsh words above, but I really read them and thought about them. I tried to look at it from your perspective. In some ways I can see your point. The God of the bible can appear as a meglalomaniac. As a follower of a seemingly megalomaniac God, . . . . I often get out of line and do not express myself as I should. This is sometimes SO frustrating for me. . . and often makes me sad. Especially here where there are so many whom I have shared a somewhat unique common experience. TWI. I usually blame it on being blonde. But, IRL it is so much easier to show my care for others.I am not saying you would like me if you met me, but it would be easier to show you who I am as a Christian. If you would allow me to address some of the things you said. . .. . . I would happily do so. . . . if for no other reason than I do believe that God is good and He is love, but I also believe I do not have to change who He is to sweeten or entice people to Him. He is enough on His own. In truth. . . He may NOT be what you want. . . I don't make ANY judgement on that. . . but, I want a shot at the very least to express what I understand about the God who seems like a megalomaniac. I will be relying on John Piper from Desiring God. . . his thesis that God is not a megalomaniac. It is a really great book to read. I could just reword this, but I want to share it with you in the best possible way. It is copied with permission. My all-shaping conviction is that God created the universe in order that he might be worshipped with white-hot intensity by created beings who see his glory manifested in creation and history and supremely in the saving work of Christ. I am also persuaded that people need to be confronted with how self-exalting God is in this purpose. To confront them with this, I give a quiz: Q 1: What is the chief end of God? A: The chief end of God is to glorify God and enjoy displaying and magnifying his glory forever. Q 2: Who is the most God-centered person in the universe? A: God. Q 3: Who is uppermost in God’s affections? A: God. Q 4: Is God an idolater? A: No. He has no other gods before him. Q 5: What is God’s chief jealousy? A: God’s chief jealousy is to be known, admired, trusted, enjoyed, and obeyed above all others. Q 6: Do you feel most loved by God because he makes much of you, or because he frees you to enjoy making much of him forever. I press on this because I believe that if we are God-centered simply because we consciously or unconsciously believe God is man-centered, then our God-centeredness is in reality man-centeredness. Teaching God’s God-centeredness forces this issue of whether we treasure God because of his excellence or mainly because he endorses ours. God’s eternal, radical, ultimate commitment to his own self-exaltation permeates Scripture. His aim to be exalted glorified, admired, magnified, praised, and reverenced is seen to be the ultimate goal of all creation, all providence, and all saving acts. “He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace” (Ephesians 1:5-6). God created the natural world to display his glory: “The heavens declare the glory of God” (Psalms 19:1). “You are my servant Israel in whom I will be glorified” (Isaiah 49:3); “. . . that they might be for me a people, a name, a praise, and a glory (Jeremiah 13:11). “He saved them [at the Red Sea] for his name’s sake that he might make known his mighty power” (Psalm l06:7-8); “I have raised you up for this very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth” (Romans 9:17). “I acted [in the wilderness] for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out (Ezekiel 20:14). [After asking for a king] “Fear not . . . For the Lord will not cast away his people for his great name’s sake (l Samuel 12:20-22). “Thus says the Lord God, It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act [in bringing you back from the exile], but for the sake of my holy name . . . . And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name . . . and the nations will know that I am the Lord” (Ezekiel 36:22-23, 32). “For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another” (Isaiah 48:11). “Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy” (Romans 15:8-9). “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again” (John 12:27, 28). “He died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised” (2 Corinthians 5:15). “God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Philippians 2:9-11). “I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins” (Isaiah 43:25). “Whoever serves [let him serve], as one who serves by the strength that God supplies—in order that in everything God may be glorified” (1 Peter 4:11). “Immediately an angel of the Lord smote [Herod] because he did not give glory to God” (Acts 12:23). “. . . when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints and to be marveled at in all who have believed (2 Thessalonians l:9-l0). “Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory, which thou hast given me in Thy love for me before the foundation of the world” (John l7:24). “For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea” (Habakkuk 2:14). “And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God is its light, and its lamp is the lamb” (Revelation 21:23). This is not megalomania because, unlike our self-exaltation, God’s self-exaltation draws attention to what gives greatest and longest joy, namely, himself. When we exalt ourselves, we lure people away from the one thing that can satisfy their souls—the infinite beauty of God. When God exalts himself, he manifests the one thing that can satisfy our souls, namely, God. Therefore, God is the one being in the universe for whom self-exaltation is the most loving act, since love labors and suffers to enthrall us with what is infinitely and eternally satisfying, namely, God. Therefore, when God exalts God and commands us to join him, he is pursuing our highest, deepest, longest happiness. This is love, not megalomania. God’s pursuit of his glory and our pursuit of our joy turn out to be the same pursuit. This is what Christ died to achieve. “Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God” (1 Peter 3:18). When we are brought to God as our highest treasure, he gets the glory and we get the pleasure. To see this and believe this and experience this is radically transforming to worship—whether personal or corporate, marketplace or liturgical. " Rumrunner, I hope you got this far!! Trying to explain to someone what worship is and how soul satisfying it is. . . . well nearly impossible. Especially to someone who seems to really dislike and not fear the God of the bible. . . BUT. . . The amazing love. . . the perfectness. . . the right of Him. It is life altering. This is a poor analogy, but if you appreciate something like art or dance. . . and you are moved by it. . . humbled and awed and satisfied in its beauty. . . well, it is a poor analogy. . .nothing compares. . . but I think you catch my drift. . . . What if it is true and He really did create you to be satisfied in Him? Just in theory, wouldn't it be self-defeating to spurn Him?

I too am curious what the point is here. Clearly articulated in the first post was the freewill choice of man. . . . to CHOOSE God or not. Was there a confusion over what is being discussed? Did you get further than the title? Doctrinally a few varying points have been made here. . . . a discussion about the second death. . . . eternal punishment. Some well thought out points have been made. Song lyrics are great, but how about a more in-depth doctrinal contribution. Do you believe that God is NOT absolute in His ability despite our freewill? Could you consider free-will a bit more coherently? If God choose you before the foundation of the world. . . i.e. before you were born. . . is free will a misnomer? The bible says we were dead and our faith is nothing but God's gift to us. .. . . . so, could that cause one to consider free-will a bit more closely? What about the doctrine of predestination? Does our free will override God's choosing? Could He still be just in condemnation if He chooses? What about vessels of destruction? You have not choosen me but I have choosen you.. . . . . Lot's to consider and more than song lyrics can answer. RG I am GLAD you liked the article and I appreciate the discussion. . . . I will be back later, but your posts are very interesting and deserve a careful consideration.

I am sorry Jeff but you are going to have to refresh my memory. Where is it anyone said EEEEwwwwww about another person's faith. . . well, let me rephrase. . . . let's limit that to a non christians faith. . . Who spoke against their Gods? Who said anything like that? My great offense was to ask a simple question. . . make a joke to Oakspear(Who understood it) and tell BRamble I prayed for her health. My other offense was to assure her I had no desire to witness to her or share my faith with her. . . . after apologizing for even a hint this might be the case. Thought that is what she wanted. . . . she pretty much said it was. . . . I used a scripture and the words of Jesus to articulate this point. I have explained that to you once. . . . that is all you get from me. I am not totally unaware that Wiccans consider proselytizing insulting. I think that has been laid out fairly well. SO. . . . If you hope they believe as you do. . . good for you. Honestly, I don't care. A no thank-you is good enough for me. I believe as I do. . . they as they do. . . . I never said EEEEwwwwww about Wicca, witchcraft, or dancing naked under the pale moon light for that matter. I made a joke to Oakspear. . . not the first time either. . . and because I did. . . . we are now two weeks into this thread. If I could be plainer I would. . . . but here goes. . . . I don't care what faith they practice. . . it has little or NOTHING to do with me. Maybe some think I should care. . . . that is their right. . . .but, we DO have freewill to choose what we want! Again, I think MOST Wiccans are gentle people. How does their faith affect my life? Guess what? It doesn't. At all. I will pass the mantle of holding out hope for them to you. . . . all yours. . . enjoy. . . . . . . go for it! :) What a waste of a day off.

Jeff, Are you looking down on her? On her faith? Do you want her to change? That she is not good enough now? Is that your motivation in holding out hope she will accept Christ? I would NEVER think that about you. . . . ever. That is not how I see your heart. :)

WHOA. . . got it now. . . . what do you think judgements are? Do you know what kind of things Paul said about people. . . . judged them as condemned? I make no judgement about anyone personally. Is that what you are saying I am doing? Because Bramble says I look down on her that makes it true? Bramble is entitled to her opinion. It is not my intent. . . I have made that crystal clear to her in times past. . . this is not our first go around. I won't repeat myself. . . why should I, people believe EXACTLY what they want. I am not on trial. . . Believe what you want and be accountable for it. Do you think if I was just a weeee bit nicer to her she would repent and forsake WICCA? If we say Wicca is acceptable to the God of the bible. . . . say it if you want. Will it make it true? BUT. . . . When someone tells you no. . . do you not consider this as an answer? Do you think it means yes? What does the bible say about those who reject Christ? Is it a secret here we can't speak of because it might offend? Are we worried about offending with the gospel. . . I am not ashamed of the gospel. . . are you? It is the power of God unto salvation. . . we believe it is the only way to God. . . through Jesus. . . . it is good enough. . . we don't have to make it prettier. I have told Bramble I want good things for her. . . that I pray for her. . . that offends her. . . that is what I have to offer. . . it has been rejected. Picked apart. . . judged and found lacking. I have offered my heart here more than once Jeff. . . do you think if it is a little better it will be acceptable? If I say things opposed to the gospel and accept any way to God. . . maybe. . . I can't do that. BTW we are to judge. . . . ourselves as well. . . we are NOT to judge hypocritically. I would have to say. . . . things are unequivocal here. I accept them at their word. Isn't that what they ask for. . . isn't that what God gives them. . .in freewill? Feel free to share whatever you want any gospel you please . . . . I have been told NO. . . although I am not sure I ever even asked. . . . take care :)

I was told by Bramble that she doesn't reject Christianity because of what happened in TWI, I believe that is in your thread about Jesus and Mary Magdelane. . . . here is the direct quote "I am not pagan because LCM and VPW were jerks and TWI was a cult. In my view, the pagan beliefs are the real authentic me. It fits. I don't have other words to describe it, but I know it at a nonverbal level within myself." I believe her. Some people will reject Jesus. Now, what is Jesus to those who don't believe . . . . according to scripture? 1 Corinthians 1:23 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles. Roman 9:32 Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. Not believing and being offended is perfectly consistent with scripture. Those verses will be offensive to some. . . yet they are speaking of preaching Christ crucified. What is not consistent with scripture is . . . we as true Christians. . . speaking a watered down . . . more tolerant and pluralistic gospel to entice those who do not accept the righteousness of God. You see, if you had to sum up Jesus in a short statement. . . it would be. . . He is the righteousness of God revealed. According to scripture . . . people turn to other things. . . works. . . to obtain their own righteousness. Is that fair enough? I love that God accepts us where we are. . . he absolutley does. . . and then what does He say? Go the other way. If you don't think your path is wrong. . . that it is not leading you astray. . . I can say repent all day long. . . but, to what purpose? Would you have me convict people?. . . . not my job. My heart is not on trial here although it may appear so, and if you have decided about me. . . you have decided. I won't try to change your mind. . . or Brambles. . . these are your judgements. . . you stand by them.

Wow. Just WOW! My heart and judgements made upon it sure are popular. I like the one I got last night before logging off the best. . . :) Pretty darn sweet IMHO. . . but that is an aside. . . Again, what do you want? If you appreciate their honesty in saying who they are. . . what is the problem? I think Bramble has CLEARLY articulated that she has another faith. Would you like me to try and change her? If I tell her the gospel the way YOU want. . . will she someday convert? Is that what I am reading? Please. . . . correct me if I am wrong. When I made my statement to Bramble. . . was I TRYING to convert her? Win her to the Lord? Was that my intent? No, it was not. I was NOT trying to present the gospel in any paticular way or trying to win her soul for the Lord. I was NOT proselytizing. You see, I actually do believe her when she tells me she doesn't want it. Jeff, not all will believe. So, is it the Holy things of God you wish me to share with her? Why? Why would I do that? What would be the reason? Tell me? So they can be called ugly? Did I not humble myself to your liking when I immediately apologized to her? Was it not enough? Did you read the thread? If you are asking me to apologize for Jesus I won't do it. If you are asking me if I purposely called Bramble a swine via scripture the answer is NO. It is an analogy not a comparision. It was out of respect for what is holy not out of contempt for swine. The principal governs how one handles the gospel in the face of those who do not want the truth. YET YET YET. . . it in NO way precludes me from loving Bramble. . . caring about her well-being and in this life. . . laying down my own for her if the need should ever be. This is my duty and heart whether she accepts it or not. Why didn't you just ask me Jeff. . . instead of telling me what I meant?

Bramble, Last word on the subject from me to you, but as we are TWO weeks into this thread and you are still offended about a verse of scripture(One you don't even believe). . . . Jesus's declaration about swine might be wearing a bit thin. Here, let me give you a new analogy to trample on. . . should take a good two weeks with this one. "Like a dog with a bone." Let's see, you don't want anyone praying for you to change your beliefs? How many times have I heard this? Where have I ever said I was? Where have I ever tried to change you? Where is that on either of these threads? Did I say change Bramble, I am praying for your soul? Did anyone? You are offended, don't want proselytizing. . . . get to decide what is proselytizing. . . get to complain I do it. . . all on the DOCTRINAL threads. . . get to complain I am praying for your heath. . . you and Kimberly get to decide the deep things of my heart. . . analyze me. . . . based on a few threads in a doctrinal forum. Hmmm now THAT is a pretty good trick. . . familar too. My goodness, if these are the heady things that offend. . . life must be pretty dull. As for health coming back at me. . . well you see, I have this problem with my neck and it pinches nerves that run down my arm. . . . a little prayer for my health. . . or whatever "turn around whammy" would not be met with disdain. While you are analyzing my intent, love, heart, and life and are offended by my prayer for your health. . . . which apparently is done with the WRONG kind of love, some kind of disassociation, implied mental illness, some kind of malice, not true enough, or whatever complaint about me the day has brought. . . . I would gently remind you. . . . You would not know me if you tripped over me. A few posts on a forum. . . . ususally in a DOCTRINAL thread about CHRISTIANITY. . . does not make you an expert on my motivation. I have a friend whose wonderful young son was diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder which affects his joints and skin. My heart is just moved in prayer for him and his family. . . . I can be moved by compassion for another's suffering. Not too difficult. Even with a less than perfect heart. Either way. . . carry on. Along with prayer and proselytizing my hobbies include baseball, politics, baking. . . . home renovation and I like old movies.

Cute very cute!

LOL My goodness I am popular. RG told me this was here. . . .and thanks RG for the lovely posts and including me in yours!! NOW. . . . let's see. . . Are we STILL complaining about being prayed for? Well, don't really HAVE a response to that. I do appreciate that Oakspear saw the humor. . . intended. . . Hmmm not sure here. Kimberly is waiting for me to apologize to Bramble assuming I used scripture to hurt --- Jeff is pleading with me for. . . something? Am I to apologize for quoting Jesus to make a point or for praying for a woman's health? Catch me up guys. You don't want me to proselytze. . . which I have been overly careful not to do. . . I guess asking you Bramble a simple question and giving the option to answer or not could on some planet somewhere be called proselytizing. Maybe. When I make clear I have no desire to share the Christian faith with her(WHICH SHE DOESN"T WANT). . . I offend her by articulating my point with the words of the Savior. By the way, it is not like you illustrated my point or anything. What is it you want. . . tell me. . . would you like me to strip down to my birthday suit and dance under the pale moonlight? Would you like me to change my belief system? Would you like me to not express my faith on the doctrinal forums in a thread about Jesus? Not really sure here, but seems a bit of overkill. But, since it seems you REALLY are curious and my absence has caused a plethora of assumption let me once again bare my heart. Now, consider this whatever you will. Jesus loves you. Really loves you. I love you too. So much so, I truly do want you to have a relationship with Him. BUT, if you want something else. . . that is what you will get. Your choice. God isn't going to send you to hell. . . you have chosen what you want and it is not Him. You have chosen. . . by your free-will. BUT, since JEff has pleaded I am going to assume He wants this. . . The bible tells us that we all sin and fall short of the Glory of God. Do you know. . . that includes Christians. It includes me. I am a sinner. . . How do we know that we are sinners. . . well, besides the bible? There is a moral code written on your hearts. Each of us knows right from wrong. . . it is wrong to hurt others. . . if there be no harm. . . do no harm. . . what defines harm? Where does that come from? It comes from God. His law written on our hearts. Yet, at one time or another, we have done harm. We are human. . . . so, we have sinned. Fallen short of the Glory of God. . . . Now, what does that mean. . . it means that a God who spoke creation into being. . . has to be Holy. . . Perfect. . . and good. It is not too difficult to look rough next to perfection. God KNOWS this. Because He loves us. . . He made a way to be reconciled to Him. Through His Son. You see, most Christians believe that Jesus is God. . . that He came here to earth and dwelt among us. Lived a perfect life. . . sinless and then died for us. . . was raised.......so that we might live in Him. Why did He need to die so that we could live. Well, again the Holiness of God. His wrath had to be satisfied. . . not because He is mean. . . .but because of the offense against Him. Not only is the love of God displayed in Jesus so is the wrath of God. You cannot offend or approach such holiness and perfection. I guess you really have to consider what such a being might be like. Why HE would not tolerate the worship of something else. He is also a paradox. . . a wonderful paradox that takes everything in your life and turns it on its ear. The first will be last. . . the meek shall inherit. . . Anyway. . . He does love us and didn't leave us without a way. He did it without us. . . our part was to kill Jesus. Yet, He made a way. He took the thing that was Holy and perfect and He loved and sacrificed it so that we might now approach Him. . . have a relationship with Him. In fact, it is a more personal relationship because it is a person. The person of Jesus. All He asks is that we believe. Now, since He went to all that trouble for us. . . seems little to ask. Especially when you get so much in return. . . we are saved. . . from judgement. . . God is a judge. . . . No one will be able to speak anything against Him on that day. Everyone will have to confess He is Lord. Every knee will bow. . . I choose to bow mine now.. But, we are free to reject the offer He makes. I just hope we do it with the utmost thought and care. . . you see, I really do believe this gospel message. Now. . . the bible NEVER defends the existence of God. . . it declares it. . . .the same bible which has been declared irrelevant so many times. . . the same bible that will be here once we are gone to our just reward. It declares . . . the same God whose death knell has been rang by those now worm food. . . the same Jesus we still talk about today. . . the same God who men have been wrestling with for a very long time. . . It also declares a great a powerful love. . . in the gospel message and the person of Jesus. Very cool guy BTW. Now. . . that is what you call proseltyzing!!

It is also "surprise" instead of surprize. . . . apologize instead of apologise. . . I revert sometimes... I look at my spelling at times and just wonder. . . "what was I thinking?" It has been fun, but not really. . . enjoy your multi-faith forum :) Minus those of us with more Orthodox traditional views. . . look around. . . just about all of us are gone. I will do my best NOT to pray for you. . . sometimes my heart just wells up with such joy in the Lord and love for all His creatures I may lapse. . . :) But if this is tolerance. . . they need to redefine it in the dictionary.

Bramble I truly want health and good things for you in this life. Let that be enough.

cman, Jesus was a man... fully human. . . He had an amazing ability to bring things back to the human condition with just a phrase. . . He is all about understanding the human condition. It is amazing to read the things he zeroed in on in the gospels. . . like when he said. . . he who is without sin. . . His words on judgement. . . or hypocritical judgement. He really got that stuff. The parables so reveal the human condition. He was tempted in all ways. . . His responses are what amaze me. . . . not what you would think. . . That is what I was thinking about when I asked about the man. He WAS a man. . . His message still captivates saint and sinner alike. . . because it is so unique. :)